WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:12.000 I think we should get started on this panel. It's super exciting. We're glad you're all here. 00:12.000 --> 00:21.000 I just want to introduce this panel hosted by Lucas that is breaking tech monopolies in Europe, 00:21.000 --> 00:27.000 a fire site chat with the European Commission, and I want to welcome Victor and Alexander from the European Commission. 00:27.000 --> 00:30.000 Thank you so much for joining us, and I'll leave it to you, Lucas. 00:30.000 --> 00:33.000 Here's a microphone for you to go back and forth. 00:33.000 --> 00:36.000 Lucas, just new when you're not talking. 00:36.000 --> 00:40.000 Okay. Everybody can hear me? It's okay. 00:40.000 --> 00:47.000 So I'm really, really glad and very happy to see everybody here look at the room is completely full. 00:47.000 --> 00:52.000 And it signs of successful that people are interested in the digital market sector. 00:52.000 --> 00:55.000 And it's interesting in the work of the Commission. 00:55.000 --> 01:02.000 And I think we will have a great time here discussing the future of the DMA. 01:02.000 --> 01:07.000 So my name is Lucas Lasotta, and I work for the Free Software Foundation Europe, 01:07.000 --> 01:12.000 and we have been engaged since the beginning on the legitimacy process of the digital market sector. 01:12.000 --> 01:14.000 Now we need this enforcement. 01:15.000 --> 01:23.000 And in this far chat, I would like to bring the Free Software community closer to the work of the regulator, 01:23.000 --> 01:27.000 which the Commission is the enforcer of the digital market sector. 01:27.000 --> 01:34.000 With that, I would like our guest, Alexander, and Victor, first to present yourself, 01:34.000 --> 01:40.000 and also to explain a little bit what is the DMA, and why it's important for the Free Software community. 01:40.000 --> 01:45.000 Well, thanks, Lucas, and thank you very much for having us today. 01:45.000 --> 01:47.000 It's very, very pleased. 01:47.000 --> 01:50.000 Well, my name is Alexandra, I'm a case handler in the DMA team. 01:50.000 --> 01:56.000 I'm working in the EConnect, but it's the European Commission that is doing enforcement as Lucas is saying. 01:56.000 --> 01:59.000 Maybe I was thinking that as a sort of introduction, 01:59.000 --> 02:05.000 because I assume that most of you are aware of the DMA and what we tried to do with the DMA, 02:05.000 --> 02:07.000 but perhaps for those that are a little bit less familiar, 02:07.000 --> 02:09.000 maybe I can say a few words. 02:09.000 --> 02:12.000 So then this question would be more meaningful for you. 02:12.000 --> 02:19.000 So essentially in the DMA, we are regulating what we call digital gatekeepers. 02:19.000 --> 02:23.000 Those large companies that were designated formally as gatekeepers, 02:23.000 --> 02:29.000 they happen to be kind of the largest companies that provide the digital services. 02:29.000 --> 02:33.000 And we are regulating certain services that we consider there are gateways. 02:33.000 --> 02:38.000 They say services that sit between business users that can be developers, 02:38.000 --> 02:42.000 and whoever is using this service in order to provide all the services. 02:42.000 --> 02:46.000 And on the other side of the gateway, we have end users. 02:46.000 --> 02:52.000 We have in the DMA plenty of obligations, because the DMA is to actually open up that gateway. 02:52.000 --> 03:01.000 It's kind of to lower the level of dependency that business users and end users have on those services. 03:01.000 --> 03:05.000 And these obligations range from data related to duplications, 03:05.000 --> 03:09.000 such as a ban on data combination between services of the gatekeeper. 03:09.000 --> 03:13.000 They also go into commercial, regulating commercial, 03:13.000 --> 03:16.000 more commercial relationships between the gatekeepers and business users. 03:16.000 --> 03:20.000 Interoperability obligations that was just talked right now. 03:20.000 --> 03:22.000 We have also transparency obligations. 03:22.000 --> 03:27.000 This is, we have a huge panel of obligations that apply to gatekeepers, 03:27.000 --> 03:32.000 and that kind of the developers can benefit from. 03:32.000 --> 03:36.000 So hi, I'm Victor, I'm a colleague of Alexander. 03:36.000 --> 03:41.000 So also one of the case handlers, and I think one important thing to add is, 03:41.000 --> 03:44.000 of course, the digital market sector is quite unique. 03:44.000 --> 03:46.000 There is a commission as a regulator. 03:46.000 --> 03:49.000 There is a lot, of course, needs to be enforced. 03:49.000 --> 03:51.000 But the topic is very technical, of course. 03:51.000 --> 03:54.000 We have to regulate these gatekeepers, how they're hardware, software, 03:54.000 --> 03:57.000 interact with end users and business users. 03:57.000 --> 04:01.000 So we have a very multiple multidisciplinary team. 04:01.000 --> 04:03.000 Alexander is one of the lawyers. 04:03.000 --> 04:06.000 We have a lot of economists as well to understand the business models 04:06.000 --> 04:10.000 that these gatekeepers have and the impact that has on the obligations. 04:10.000 --> 04:13.000 And one of the, we call ourselves a technologist, 04:13.000 --> 04:19.000 software engineer in training, which is, of course, very important to understand 04:19.000 --> 04:23.000 these obligations to really go down into a very deep technical level. 04:23.000 --> 04:29.000 And to the impact that the MA will have on how these gatekeepers proceed. 04:29.000 --> 04:33.000 So we really need like these different people, these different backgrounds, 04:33.000 --> 04:37.000 and to fully do our regulatory work. 04:37.000 --> 04:38.000 Excellent. 04:38.000 --> 04:44.000 So as I correct and understood, the DAV is not about regulating competition 04:44.000 --> 04:47.000 between the large companies, but also to level the playing feud, 04:47.000 --> 04:53.000 allowing access seekers to access the type of technology and infrastructure 04:53.000 --> 04:57.000 that is being created and gate kept by this companies. 04:57.000 --> 05:05.000 And in this sense, I would like to know if, especially not only from the technical, 05:05.000 --> 05:09.000 but also from the technical perspective, has been the free software community 05:09.000 --> 05:14.000 useful for each one to understand how, for example, we just had the presentation 05:14.000 --> 05:20.000 from Mark from FFA, who break down these concepts and how this interconnecting 05:20.000 --> 05:26.000 to interpret and did the free software community help to understand better 05:26.000 --> 05:29.000 these concepts on the enemy? 05:29.000 --> 05:33.000 Yeah, maybe I can tackle the first question because the second is technical, so I believe that's a bit. 05:33.000 --> 05:38.000 But yeah, I mean, it's not about competition between, as you say, between big companies. 05:38.000 --> 05:44.000 I mean, ultimately, the main idea of the DMA is actually, as I was saying, 05:44.000 --> 05:47.000 is just to lower the degree of dependency that we have on these services. 05:47.000 --> 05:51.000 Of course, that means that everybody can benefit from them, 05:51.000 --> 05:55.000 that also implies big companies, in the sense that they are business users as well, 05:55.000 --> 05:58.000 and sometimes they offer services to each other. 05:58.000 --> 06:03.000 And that means that initially, they are not excluded from being beneficiaries. 06:03.000 --> 06:06.000 Now, that doesn't mean that it's to regulate their relationships, 06:06.000 --> 06:11.000 but it's about breaking up that dependency to lower the degree of, 06:11.000 --> 06:16.000 you know, that it's actually to make to eliminate intermediaries, 06:16.000 --> 06:21.000 so to speak, and the degree of determination between these companies and the business users. 06:21.000 --> 06:26.000 And that, of course, implies more about, you know, it's the ultimate goal. 06:26.000 --> 06:32.000 Normally, we say that the DMA and it's written in the MA, and it's what we have in the law, 06:32.000 --> 06:37.000 that is to make digital markets more contestable and fader. 06:37.000 --> 06:43.000 And ultimately, the goal is actually to kind of leave the room for innovation, 06:43.000 --> 06:49.000 and it's actually where developers and the free software community actually can benefit from, 06:49.000 --> 06:51.000 it's just to have more space for them. 06:51.000 --> 06:52.000 All right. 06:52.000 --> 06:55.000 Indeed, that's our example points out. 06:55.000 --> 06:59.000 The free software community is just kind of a special position in this relation, 06:59.000 --> 07:03.000 because, of course, if you have interaction between gatekeepers, 07:03.000 --> 07:06.000 those are both beholden to this law, but the free software community, 07:06.000 --> 07:09.000 of course, has its unique characteristics in terms of 07:09.000 --> 07:12.000 its abilities to benefit from the digital market sector, 07:12.000 --> 07:18.000 and it also has a very unopposition in terms of being helpful and a discussion. 07:18.000 --> 07:20.000 They not only have this very deep, 07:20.000 --> 07:26.000 but can technical knowledge of how access to gatekeepers, 07:26.000 --> 07:29.000 software and hardware, for example, could benefit them. 07:29.000 --> 07:31.000 They're also very principal. 07:31.000 --> 07:37.000 They really are focused on openness, on the freedom to do with your devices, 07:37.000 --> 07:39.000 and so on what you want. 07:39.000 --> 07:42.000 They have also an emphasis on security and privacy. 07:42.000 --> 07:44.000 So they have this mission for openness. 07:44.000 --> 07:48.000 So this brings a very unique interaction, and also a unique role in the interactions 07:48.000 --> 07:52.000 that they can have also with us as a regulator. 07:52.000 --> 07:53.000 Yeah, that's excellent. 07:53.000 --> 07:56.000 Actually, I'm very happy that last year we met, 07:56.000 --> 07:58.000 and also we had this exchange. 07:58.000 --> 08:01.000 And during the whole year of 2024, 08:01.000 --> 08:06.000 we had a very deep dialogue with the commission, 08:06.000 --> 08:08.000 and the free software foundation, 08:08.000 --> 08:10.000 Europe, together with partners from left-row, 08:10.000 --> 08:14.000 a depth fair, and new taller. 08:15.000 --> 08:20.000 And we worked together with some bit positions that the commission responded. 08:20.000 --> 08:30.000 And I think it was a nice regulatory dialogue that we could establish in order to try to put the demands forward 08:30.000 --> 08:35.000 in order to put the interests of the free software community over there. 08:35.000 --> 08:39.000 And having what you both just said, 08:39.000 --> 08:45.000 well, I am a lawyer by training, and I'm also a legal researcher. 08:45.000 --> 08:53.000 And one thing that I learned in the law is that law always has some different interpretations. 08:53.000 --> 08:58.000 So it's not very possible to say there's just one interpretation of the law. 08:58.000 --> 09:04.000 And here at the DMA, we are dwelling perhaps with a clash of cultures. 09:04.000 --> 09:06.000 We have the free software community, 09:06.000 --> 09:11.000 which takes usually reads the DMA more permissively, 09:11.000 --> 09:15.000 if you will, and looks in the latter of the law and say, 09:15.000 --> 09:19.000 we need to interpret this broader, right? 09:19.000 --> 09:21.000 But then we have, and the other sides, 09:21.000 --> 09:23.000 we have apples and Microsoft of the life, 09:23.000 --> 09:25.000 when reads the laws at all. 09:25.000 --> 09:27.000 This is not how you are thinking, 09:27.000 --> 09:30.000 it should be reading, it should be closed, 09:30.000 --> 09:33.000 and the approach is much more restrictive. 09:33.000 --> 09:37.000 How the commission deals with that? 09:37.000 --> 09:41.000 Yeah, no, that's a good question. 09:41.000 --> 09:43.000 Sorry, yeah. 09:43.000 --> 09:47.000 So I mean, but this is not unique to the DMA. 09:47.000 --> 09:51.000 It's actually about any regulation where you have the text that you have, 09:51.000 --> 09:53.000 and you have to work with that. 09:53.000 --> 09:56.000 And as you say, it may be interpreted sometimes, 09:56.000 --> 09:59.000 different ways and the different actors, 09:59.000 --> 10:03.000 of course, they are going to actually interpret that from their perspective, 10:03.000 --> 10:04.000 and to their benefit. 10:04.000 --> 10:05.000 And that's normal. 10:05.000 --> 10:11.000 I mean, one key, maybe this is a very legal answer, 10:11.000 --> 10:16.000 but one of the things that when it comes to interpreting these types of text 10:16.000 --> 10:20.000 is that we have to look at the intent that is behind the legal test. 10:20.000 --> 10:22.000 And for that, for example, the court is going to say, 10:22.000 --> 10:24.000 okay, what's the intention of the legislators 10:24.000 --> 10:27.000 when they were actually preparing their population? 10:27.000 --> 10:30.000 Because the idea of this particular obligation, for example, 10:30.000 --> 10:31.000 of this article. 10:31.000 --> 10:38.000 And that's essentially what everybody has in mind when it comes to interpreting the DMA, 10:38.000 --> 10:40.000 or whichever regulation. 10:40.000 --> 10:45.000 I mean, that doesn't mean that we can have different interpretation. 10:45.000 --> 10:49.000 And that doesn't mean that if you feel, okay, 10:49.000 --> 10:52.000 mind interpretation, I think it's a little bit of a stretch, 10:52.000 --> 10:55.000 so I'm just not going to raise the point, 10:55.000 --> 10:58.000 or to kind of make the commission aware that this could be an interpretation. 10:58.000 --> 11:00.000 We always appreciate that type of input, 11:00.000 --> 11:06.000 because, as you say, we can interpret kind of the legal concepts that we have 11:06.000 --> 11:09.000 from different perspectives, according to a little bit with the intention of the 11:09.000 --> 11:10.000 college's leaders. 11:10.000 --> 11:14.000 Now, if that goes too far, we will tell you in the sense that we would say, 11:14.000 --> 11:17.000 well, that was not the intention behind the article. 11:17.000 --> 11:19.000 You know, these are the limits that we have. 11:19.000 --> 11:23.000 And of course, we have to work with the text that was approved. 11:23.000 --> 11:26.000 But you know, it's good actually to have that input, 11:26.000 --> 11:31.000 because sometimes that discussion leads to discover all the things and to realize. 11:31.000 --> 11:35.000 And at the end of the day, that's always very helpful. 11:35.000 --> 11:38.000 So it's not about saying, oh, please don't come. 11:38.000 --> 11:42.000 It's not that we're saying that if you feel that maybe too far, 11:42.000 --> 11:46.000 we're always very happy to listen to any type of argument and see, 11:46.000 --> 11:49.000 okay, let's see if this makes sense legally speaking. 11:49.000 --> 11:53.000 Sometimes what we have is actually developers coming to us with a very technical 11:53.000 --> 11:57.000 argument and then it's our job with the techniques that we had and the 11:57.000 --> 12:01.000 economies and the lawyers to say, okay, this is the way that we can translate 12:01.000 --> 12:04.000 this argument into a kind of a legal argument. 12:04.000 --> 12:08.000 And this is the way that it could be interpreted in these obligations. 12:08.000 --> 12:11.000 So we'll always try to see how that fits. 12:11.000 --> 12:14.000 If it goes too far, we will tell you. 12:15.000 --> 12:18.000 Okay, no, yeah, that's quite interesting. 12:18.000 --> 12:22.000 And because legally speaking, this is difficult, right? 12:22.000 --> 12:26.000 And as I said, we need to see if the arguments, 12:26.000 --> 12:32.000 they are sound logically and in the sense of the spirit and the letter of the law. 12:32.000 --> 12:36.000 But now I would like to shift a little bit, 12:36.000 --> 12:39.000 also not from the difficulties in illegal words, 12:39.000 --> 12:42.000 but also in the technical role world. 12:42.000 --> 12:47.000 And I do think that and that's why the teams in the commission, 12:47.000 --> 12:49.000 they are much disciplinary, right? 12:49.000 --> 12:52.000 We'll have lawyers, economists, we have technical people. 12:52.000 --> 12:57.000 And what are the difficulties that when the commission is enforcing the DMA 12:57.000 --> 13:01.000 are facing in order to bring gatekeepers into compliance? 13:01.000 --> 13:06.000 Yes, and needs to be able to do our regulatory enforcement work. 13:06.000 --> 13:11.000 We also need to have this very deep technical understanding of how these products work. 13:11.000 --> 13:13.000 What kind of data is available? 13:13.000 --> 13:18.000 Kind of interfaces or how do these hardware and software products interact? 13:18.000 --> 13:22.000 What are the challenges that the business users and the end users encounter? 13:22.000 --> 13:26.000 And we have to do this across all the obligations that the DMA as well, 13:26.000 --> 13:31.000 of course, and they touch upon really different aspects of the digital market. 13:31.000 --> 13:34.000 And we need to have this very broad coverage. 13:34.000 --> 13:38.000 We just saw this presentation on app stores and side loading. 13:38.000 --> 13:42.000 That has, again, it has its more contractual commercial components, 13:42.000 --> 13:44.000 but it also has the technical components. 13:44.000 --> 13:50.000 We have to understand how are these solutions implemented and what kind of are the intricacies? 13:50.000 --> 13:55.000 How does that kind of translate to compliance with the law? 13:55.000 --> 14:00.000 We also have provisions that say on circumvention, as they saw on how these, 14:00.000 --> 14:06.000 what the user journey is, how is it actually usable towards end users? 14:06.000 --> 14:12.000 And the second thing is we, people might have seen that regarding interoperability. 14:12.000 --> 14:16.000 We actually opened what we call specification proceedings, which is one order two. 14:16.000 --> 14:24.000 We have to basically an interaction with the gatekeeper kind of give guidance on how to comply with the law. 14:24.000 --> 14:27.000 And that goes to an extreme technical detail. 14:27.000 --> 14:29.000 We had it now with Apple. 14:29.000 --> 14:31.000 Part of it is already in a public. 14:31.000 --> 14:34.000 We cover everything from how a notification on iPhone works, 14:34.000 --> 14:38.000 all the way to how we have a peer-to-peer Wi-Fi interaction with all the devices. 14:38.000 --> 14:40.000 So we need to at all levels at all stages. 14:40.000 --> 14:44.000 We have to to get into the technical details for this. 14:44.000 --> 14:46.000 We interact with the gatekeeper. 14:46.000 --> 14:52.000 We actually also have a sort of a regulatory ride to request that they explain to us how these things work, 14:52.000 --> 14:53.000 even internally. 14:53.000 --> 14:56.000 We have interactions with third parties, such as the free software community, 14:56.000 --> 15:00.000 to understand how actually data they use by software developers, 15:00.000 --> 15:04.000 by software engineers, how that affects the obligations. 15:04.000 --> 15:07.000 We do of course also our own technical analysis, 15:07.000 --> 15:11.000 but we have to combine all of these things on the technical side with the legal side, 15:11.000 --> 15:16.000 with the economic side, to really properly do the regulatory work, 15:16.000 --> 15:19.000 and then assess indeed the compliance with the law. 15:19.000 --> 15:22.000 Yeah, that's not simple at all. 15:22.000 --> 15:27.000 And right, since the sessions about a fire shed are a chat, 15:28.000 --> 15:30.000 not only between ourselves, but also between the audience. 15:30.000 --> 15:32.000 We'd like to make the last question, 15:32.000 --> 15:34.000 so we also to give floor to the audience. 15:34.000 --> 15:41.000 Looking ahead, which type of feedback do you would like to hear or to receive 15:41.000 --> 15:48.000 from the free software community in terms of legal economy and even technical aspects? 15:48.000 --> 15:56.000 Yeah, so, well, the things we need to understand two things. 15:57.000 --> 16:00.000 We need to understand, well, how this service is work, 16:00.000 --> 16:02.000 kind of what Victor is saying, 16:02.000 --> 16:06.000 we need to understand the very technical aspect of these services, 16:06.000 --> 16:11.000 and we also need to understand what are kind of the issues that the developers 16:11.000 --> 16:13.000 and other business uses are actually facing. 16:13.000 --> 16:16.000 So what we need to know, the type of input that we need, 16:16.000 --> 16:19.000 not only legal, but it's also taking advantage to say, 16:19.000 --> 16:21.000 well, I'm trying to do this. 16:21.000 --> 16:25.000 I believe that the DMA is backing me up on this, 16:25.000 --> 16:28.000 but these are the problems that I'm facing, 16:28.000 --> 16:31.000 and that goes from when it comes to, 16:31.000 --> 16:34.000 for example, simply trying to get an up through notisation, 16:34.000 --> 16:36.000 for example, you can say, 16:36.000 --> 16:39.000 well, these are all the problems that I'm facing, 16:39.000 --> 16:43.000 and therefore I think that we have a problem here. 16:43.000 --> 16:46.000 And the type of input that we are looking for is actually, 16:46.000 --> 16:49.000 kind of the input that explains to us, 16:49.000 --> 16:52.000 all those intricacies that we kind of know, 16:52.000 --> 16:56.000 because we are not using that service in that kind of in that manner. 16:56.000 --> 17:00.000 And anything like that, it would be very opposite. 17:00.000 --> 17:01.000 Yeah, great. 17:01.000 --> 17:04.000 And the technical is the same in your opinion. 17:04.000 --> 17:05.000 Yeah, definitely. 17:05.000 --> 17:08.000 So, indeed, any technical contributions are very welcome, 17:08.000 --> 17:12.000 again, to support the work that we do to understand, 17:12.000 --> 17:15.000 across all of these obligations, all the aspects. 17:15.000 --> 17:18.000 On the technical side, how these products work, 17:18.000 --> 17:21.000 how people are using them, and what problems they face, 17:21.000 --> 17:24.000 how the DMA might contribute, 17:24.000 --> 17:26.000 and need a free software community, 17:26.000 --> 17:29.000 has this kind of very technical expertise, 17:29.000 --> 17:32.000 sees its own special types of problems, 17:32.000 --> 17:36.000 so again, any contributions very welcome. 17:36.000 --> 17:37.000 Excellent. 17:37.000 --> 17:40.000 Do we have some time for questions, Kern? 17:40.000 --> 17:43.000 Yes, we have like five minutes. 17:43.000 --> 17:44.000 Five minutes. 17:44.000 --> 17:45.000 Excellent. 17:45.000 --> 17:46.000 All right. 17:46.000 --> 17:49.000 So, yeah, anyone has some questions. 17:49.000 --> 17:50.000 Ready? 17:50.000 --> 17:53.000 Some people? Okay, nice. 17:53.000 --> 17:54.000 Hello. 17:54.000 --> 17:56.000 Thank you for being here. 17:56.000 --> 18:00.000 So, you mentioned that the objective of the DMA is to improve 18:00.000 --> 18:03.000 the fairness of the market, 18:03.000 --> 18:05.000 and that's pretty hard to measure. 18:05.000 --> 18:09.000 So, what kind of evidence are you going to use to assess 18:09.000 --> 18:11.000 the behavior of the gatekeepers, 18:11.000 --> 18:14.000 the effectiveness of the remedies, 18:15.000 --> 18:19.000 and the impact of the DMA itself? 18:19.000 --> 18:21.000 Do you want to take a few? 18:21.000 --> 18:23.000 Because we have five. 18:23.000 --> 18:25.000 Because maybe see if there are similar questions, 18:25.000 --> 18:26.000 maybe you can take. 18:26.000 --> 18:29.000 Okay, so perhaps we can take another question. 18:29.000 --> 18:32.000 So, that one is about metrics, right? 18:32.000 --> 18:35.000 So, we're related to the other one. 18:35.000 --> 18:39.000 How does the European Commission bring in? 18:39.000 --> 18:43.000 How does the European Commission bring in open source community? 18:43.000 --> 18:48.000 When it's not naturally coming to the institution. 18:48.000 --> 18:53.000 So, in topics that Microsoft or Apple may be pushing forward, 18:53.000 --> 18:56.000 how do you bring back the open source community? 18:56.000 --> 18:57.000 Another one. 18:57.000 --> 18:59.000 Do you want to start? 18:59.000 --> 19:01.000 Let's start the discussion. 19:01.000 --> 19:04.000 Okay. 19:04.000 --> 19:05.000 Okay. 19:05.000 --> 19:10.000 So, your question, which is more about how to measure compliance? 19:10.000 --> 19:12.000 When it comes only to, no, sorry. 19:12.000 --> 19:15.000 When it comes not only to fairness, but I suppose also that applies to market 19:15.000 --> 19:18.000 contestability, right, which is out kind of the two locals. 19:18.000 --> 19:23.000 I mean, it's not that we have kind of a formula that we can apply and say, 19:23.000 --> 19:29.000 okay, you know, if I add two plus two, then, you know, this is the result that I have. 19:29.000 --> 19:34.000 It's more about sometimes the, it depends really on the obligation. 19:34.000 --> 19:37.000 So, some obligations are really kind of obligations are result 19:37.000 --> 19:39.000 and we need to see the results. 19:39.000 --> 19:43.000 If the results are not there, then that means that something is wrong. 19:43.000 --> 19:46.000 And then it's for us to analyze with the gatekeeper and say, 19:46.000 --> 19:50.000 okay, gatekeeper, you've been putting this compliance solution on the table, 19:50.000 --> 19:51.000 but we don't see the results. 19:51.000 --> 19:53.000 So, where is the problem in all these processes, 19:53.000 --> 19:56.000 but you are implementing this compliance solution? 19:56.000 --> 19:58.000 There are other obligations that are less of our result. 19:58.000 --> 20:00.000 And then there we have to see, 20:00.000 --> 20:04.000 Hadoq with the gatekeeper, what they see that they are putting in place. 20:04.000 --> 20:07.000 If we don't see, again, if we don't see that anything has changed, 20:07.000 --> 20:12.000 then, or if we, for example, some developers are very vocal 20:12.000 --> 20:15.000 and will come to us and will say, look, this is what they come, 20:15.000 --> 20:18.000 by the gatekeeper is putting on the table. 20:18.000 --> 20:22.000 We don't see any kind of appropriate implementation or maybe sometimes, 20:22.000 --> 20:26.000 you know, on paper looks fine, but then the practical implementation 20:26.000 --> 20:28.000 and a fit doesn't work. 20:28.000 --> 20:31.000 So, it really depends a little bit on the context and the type of service 20:31.000 --> 20:33.000 that we are regulating the type of gatekeepers, 20:33.000 --> 20:35.000 and gatekeepers have different service. 20:35.000 --> 20:38.000 I mean, they operate the same service in a different way. 20:38.000 --> 20:43.000 So, it's not that we have kind of a metric, so to speak, 20:43.000 --> 20:45.000 because it really, really depends on the actor, 20:45.000 --> 20:47.000 it really depends on the service, 20:47.000 --> 20:52.000 and it really depends also on what business you wanted to do with that service, sometimes. 20:52.000 --> 20:55.000 And in terms of the engagement to the community, 20:55.000 --> 20:58.000 it's definitely a valid concern. 20:59.000 --> 21:04.000 We, of course, if we are aware of a specific organization or something, 21:04.000 --> 21:08.000 or an advocacy group, that would be relevant to engagement for certain obligation, 21:08.000 --> 21:11.000 we will try to seek out their contribution, 21:11.000 --> 21:14.000 but at the same time, what we really strongly encourage is that, 21:14.000 --> 21:16.000 everyone has the right to reach out to us, 21:16.000 --> 21:21.000 and we have the, I think, obligation to actually process that and to engage further. 21:21.000 --> 21:26.000 So, in that regard, if you would go to the website of the Commission of the Digital Markets Act, 21:26.000 --> 21:31.000 there's actually a way to reach out to us to file a request or a concern, 21:31.000 --> 21:33.000 and that will be followed by, 21:33.000 --> 21:37.000 we actually have the necessity to be fair in the process, 21:37.000 --> 21:40.000 and to listen to everybody who files a concern, 21:40.000 --> 21:43.000 and that I think would be the primary way to reach out to us. 21:43.000 --> 21:46.000 It's a bit more like you having to do the effort to get to us, 21:46.000 --> 21:49.000 but once we are aware of these concerns, 21:49.000 --> 21:51.000 and we are aware of relevant parties, 21:51.000 --> 21:54.000 we will continue this engagement. 21:55.000 --> 21:58.000 Excellent, perhaps a former question. 21:59.000 --> 22:01.000 Yes, thank you. 22:01.000 --> 22:05.000 I'm just sitting here listening to a session about breaking big tech monopolies, 22:05.000 --> 22:11.000 while at the same time, one of the main sponsors of this event is one of those tech monopolies. 22:11.000 --> 22:15.000 To me, that really feels like I'm sitting in an environmental conference, 22:15.000 --> 22:18.000 organized by Greenpeace, but sponsor by Axel Mobile. 22:18.000 --> 22:20.000 How do you feel like? 22:25.000 --> 22:29.000 Well, I think I will take it, because they are our guests. 22:31.000 --> 22:40.000 Yeah, I think diversity is the rule here in order to, for the success. 22:40.000 --> 22:46.000 What I mean is that, yeah, it did perhaps we have some sponsors that they are gatekeepers of digital markets, 22:46.000 --> 22:48.000 but they are not the only ones, 22:48.000 --> 22:53.000 and I think we need to be diversified in order to depend on them. 22:53.000 --> 22:59.000 And I think perhaps I don't know about Boston, because I'm not involved in the administration and the marketing, 22:59.000 --> 23:02.000 but I am involved with the Free Software Foundation Europe, 23:02.000 --> 23:06.000 and there we have a cap, no more than 20% of any donations for us 23:06.000 --> 23:09.000 should come from corporate donations. 23:09.000 --> 23:14.000 Although we receive money from some gatekeepers, 23:14.000 --> 23:18.000 I think it's limited, so we are not dependent on them. 23:18.000 --> 23:21.000 So perhaps I don't know how it works with Boston, 23:21.000 --> 23:24.000 but they have some kind of policy, I think, 23:24.000 --> 23:27.000 then I would not see too much of a problem here. 23:30.000 --> 23:34.000 Karen, two minutes, okay, so one more question, then. 23:37.000 --> 23:42.000 Yes, so indeed, we're talking about breaking techn monopolies. 23:42.000 --> 23:45.000 If you would have to divide 100 energy points, 23:45.000 --> 23:50.000 how much energy points would go to looking at the internal workings of the companies that may be 23:50.000 --> 23:53.000 we don't really want to spend our intention on, 23:53.000 --> 23:57.000 because they're not really, let's say, the core focus of what we would want, 23:57.000 --> 24:00.000 and how many of those attention points which you want to actually 24:00.000 --> 24:07.000 creating an internal digital market in Europe for the open source energy tips that are already there. 24:07.000 --> 24:17.000 This question is more for the commission or for the, 24:17.000 --> 24:20.000 do you want to take this one? 24:20.000 --> 24:22.000 Yeah, we would like to, but could you perhaps refresh, 24:22.000 --> 24:24.000 because I'm talking about attention points, 24:24.000 --> 24:26.000 but what do you mean by attention points? 24:26.000 --> 24:30.000 So you mentioned you actually understand the inner workings of the platform. 24:30.000 --> 24:31.000 Yeah. 24:31.000 --> 24:37.000 So it means that we as the government will spend a lot of time looking into the American big tech companies. 24:37.000 --> 24:41.000 But we also want to create an European internal market, single markets, 24:41.000 --> 24:42.000 on what competition. 24:42.000 --> 24:48.000 So you have to talk about the European companies organization that try to build up something. 24:48.000 --> 24:52.000 And how do you decide how to divide your focus? 24:52.000 --> 24:54.000 Okay, so yeah, I'll replace the question. 24:54.000 --> 24:59.000 So the question is, because we've been focusing on how the services of the, 24:59.000 --> 25:04.000 we keep as work and we also have to kind of pay attention on kind of the European developers, 25:04.000 --> 25:07.000 how they work and what they need, is that correct? 25:07.000 --> 25:10.000 Okay, so no, I mean, it's, it's a bit of both actually, 25:10.000 --> 25:16.000 because for example, we're applying to, coming back to the previous question about how we mess with compliance. 25:16.000 --> 25:20.000 I mean, what I was saying is, well, it really depends on the case, 25:20.000 --> 25:27.000 and it really depends on the service and what kind of use of that service one business uses to do. 25:27.000 --> 25:33.000 And there we include actually European developers, which may have different business models, 25:33.000 --> 25:34.000 different intentions. 25:34.000 --> 25:36.000 And there is where we are actually paying attention to them. 25:36.000 --> 25:41.000 It's not about only understanding how the services of the gatekeepers work, 25:41.000 --> 25:45.000 which happen to be mostly non-European. 25:45.000 --> 25:52.000 But it's more also about understanding kind of what European developers need, 25:52.000 --> 25:55.000 in terms of the use that they do of those services, 25:55.000 --> 26:00.000 and their business models, and kind of all the technical capabilities that they need to benefit from. 26:00.000 --> 26:01.000 All right. 26:01.000 --> 26:02.000 Excellent. 26:02.000 --> 26:05.000 People, thank you very much for your undivided attention, 26:05.000 --> 26:08.000 and please give some applause to Victor and Alicia. 26:08.000 --> 26:15.000 Thank you.