WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:12.000 You may have seen my Spritly colleagues give some talks, had a few of them, and they're 00:12.000 --> 00:15.000 also lovely and well prepared. 00:15.000 --> 00:17.000 And I'm prepared for this talk. 00:17.000 --> 00:20.000 We're going to do a live. 00:20.000 --> 00:24.000 Instead, I just opened up a bunch of tabs in my browser which I've done a few times before, 00:24.000 --> 00:25.000 but I've got a plenty to say. 00:25.000 --> 00:27.000 I'm going to work our way through it. 00:28.000 --> 00:35.000 I think that this talk is talking about where Spritly is from here to there, kind of giving you the vision of things. 00:35.000 --> 00:41.000 Which might seem like something that it's absolutely bananas to just go unprepared, but, you know, 00:41.000 --> 00:46.000 hopefully, it turns out that I just actually have everything that I have that I have. 00:46.000 --> 00:47.000 Let's find out. 00:47.000 --> 00:52.000 So, if you know me, I'm Christine Lamar rubber, Executive Director of the Spritly Institute, 00:52.000 --> 00:56.000 but you may also know me for all my work on activity pub, right? 00:57.000 --> 00:59.000 It's a decentralized networking protocol. 00:59.000 --> 01:05.000 It's a server to server messaging protocol, also trying to server, but people keep forgetting about that. 01:05.000 --> 01:08.000 And it's pretty cool. 01:08.000 --> 01:12.000 I was really lucky actually to be able to work on it with Jessica Talon, 01:12.000 --> 01:13.000 which is just spoke. 01:13.000 --> 01:15.000 We were both on the spec. 01:15.000 --> 01:21.000 And when we finally got to this point, we finally got to a recommendation about the spec. 01:21.000 --> 01:24.000 I felt really, you know, I felt good. 01:24.000 --> 01:26.000 You know, it was a long amount of effort. 01:26.000 --> 01:28.000 It was very anxiety-inducing. 01:28.000 --> 01:34.000 And then, I, you know, what really bothered me was what we couldn't do. 01:34.000 --> 01:38.000 And actually, if you've been here and you've seen me give a talk to this room a few times, 01:38.000 --> 01:42.000 you may remember a talk a few years ago when I talked about this thing called eight-sync. 01:42.000 --> 01:44.000 It was this after-model type thing. 01:44.000 --> 01:47.000 The predecessor to Goblins, in fact, actually. 01:47.000 --> 01:50.000 I gave it this talk, which you may or may not remember. 01:50.000 --> 01:52.000 Raise your hand if you remember this talk. 01:52.000 --> 01:54.000 Okay, all right, we haven't got a few people. 01:54.000 --> 02:00.000 If you didn't see this talk, it's a talk where I had a, a multi-player user dungeon. 02:00.000 --> 02:02.000 It, like, the text adventure. 02:02.000 --> 02:05.000 And I had the audience, and that was my slides, like, rooms and the thing. 02:05.000 --> 02:06.000 And people connected to it. 02:06.000 --> 02:10.000 And I have people say things that they'd like to see in the game, and I changed it live, right? 02:10.000 --> 02:12.000 You know, and you could explore the game and stuff like that. 02:12.000 --> 02:16.000 And, you know, people asked me this question, which was, oh, how do I add stuff? 02:16.000 --> 02:18.000 You're editing skin coat on the fly, right? 02:18.000 --> 02:19.000 You know, this is really cool. 02:19.000 --> 02:20.000 We're like, how do you, how do I add things? 02:20.000 --> 02:23.000 And I'm like, oh, I don't want you to pull my hard drive, right? 02:23.000 --> 02:26.000 But this is a really troubling question, right? 02:26.000 --> 02:29.000 You know, and actually, turns out that I read Andy Wingo's blog at one point, 02:29.000 --> 02:32.000 and he mentions this thing called security criminal based on go on the calculus, 02:32.000 --> 02:33.000 by Jonathan Maurice. 02:33.000 --> 02:37.000 And this, this is, ends up being a great article, and it says, oh, hey, 02:37.000 --> 02:42.000 if you're really serious about, like, lexical scope and stuff like that. 02:42.000 --> 02:45.000 Actually, your ordinary programming models, including steam, 02:45.000 --> 02:47.000 actually, are your security paradigm. 02:47.000 --> 02:51.000 And I started pushing on this further and finding out that this capability, security thing. 02:51.000 --> 02:56.000 There were all these things that I was worried about that, that you just couldn't do an activity pub. 02:56.000 --> 02:59.000 And it always bothered me, like, you know, why couldn't we do a live world 02:59.000 --> 03:02.000 where things are, you know, walking around and interacting with each other? 03:02.000 --> 03:04.000 Why can't we have the richness of everyday life? 03:04.000 --> 03:08.000 You know, we, we think of social, when we talk about social networks, 03:08.000 --> 03:13.000 we think about it as just being, like, sending postcards to each other, basically, right? 03:13.000 --> 03:15.000 But it's not true. 03:15.000 --> 03:19.000 Society is more than just, you know, telling people things. 03:19.000 --> 03:21.000 It's also collaborating, right? 03:21.000 --> 03:24.000 And, and when, and there are other troubling things. 03:24.000 --> 03:27.000 I guess, if servers went down, people felt lost, 03:27.000 --> 03:30.000 or, you know, they couldn't, didn't know how to be able to move from place to place. 03:30.000 --> 03:33.000 The, their stuff would disappear, it would be really painful. 03:33.000 --> 03:35.000 And, like, how do we fix all these things? 03:35.000 --> 03:37.000 And so these things were really bothering me. 03:37.000 --> 03:41.000 And so, frankly, started out originally, right after activity pub, 03:41.000 --> 03:44.000 like, well, actually, before activity pub finished, 03:44.000 --> 03:47.000 is a research project to try to figure out these things. 03:47.000 --> 03:53.000 And, and, days, we have this organization called the Spray at the Institute. 03:53.000 --> 03:56.000 We're running a fundraising campaign, please support us. 03:56.000 --> 03:58.000 We're doing cool things. 03:58.000 --> 04:02.000 The support really helps where a U.S. nonprofit, so on and so forth. 04:02.000 --> 04:04.000 But, you know, we have this, like, let's take back the net. 04:04.000 --> 04:06.000 You know, take thing. 04:06.000 --> 04:10.000 And, and we're, we're, we're building on, 04:10.000 --> 04:13.000 we're, you know, we say, we're building on our experience for activity pub, 04:13.000 --> 04:15.000 we're doing object activity, building security stuff. 04:15.000 --> 04:18.000 And, you know, like, but these better worlds await, right? 04:18.000 --> 04:21.000 And, um, you know, I already mentioned this fundraiser, 04:21.000 --> 04:23.000 but I'll mention one more time. 04:23.000 --> 04:25.000 You know, we, we, sometimes we ship people who are like, 04:25.000 --> 04:26.000 oh, you're too video guinea, blah, blah, blah, blah. 04:26.000 --> 04:28.000 Well, I'll, I'll defend that on this talk. 04:28.000 --> 04:31.000 But, um, but if you donate, uh, some of the levels, 04:31.000 --> 04:34.000 you can actually get your name and the credits of our game, just say. 04:34.000 --> 04:38.000 Um, but, but one of the things that we have is this goblins thing. 04:38.000 --> 04:40.000 This is actually, wow, have you heard of this? 04:40.000 --> 04:42.000 Well, if you're in the room, you just did. 04:42.000 --> 04:44.000 Jessica just talked about this in great length. 04:44.000 --> 04:46.000 It's a distributed programming environment. 04:46.000 --> 04:48.000 And it's really cool. 04:48.000 --> 04:51.000 Um, and, uh, it uses this protocol called O'Captain, 04:51.000 --> 04:54.000 but people, you know, think about, like, sometimes we get people say, 04:54.000 --> 04:56.000 ask, you know, like, how do it? 04:56.000 --> 05:00.000 Can I just, how do I, I want to get sprightly in my language, right? 05:00.000 --> 05:02.000 Um, and we say, well, we, you know, well, 05:02.000 --> 05:04.000 we have this protocol called O'Captain. 05:04.000 --> 05:05.000 They're like, oh, cool, implement that. 05:05.000 --> 05:07.000 But, you know, Jessica showed up all these things with, like, 05:07.000 --> 05:09.000 time travel and, like, you have network programming 05:09.000 --> 05:11.000 without even needing to think about it. 05:11.000 --> 05:14.000 Actually, goblins is a lot more than just the protocol, right? 05:14.000 --> 05:17.000 It's also like this whole environment of thinking about how to write things 05:17.000 --> 05:21.000 and how to make it so that you get these experiences that you reduce 05:21.000 --> 05:25.000 the difficulties of building secure distributed peer-to-peer networks 05:25.000 --> 05:28.000 to something manageable and understandable, right? 05:28.000 --> 05:31.000 You know, so if you, if you have, um, 05:31.000 --> 05:35.000 Jango and Rails did an amazing job, you know, like, in the mid 2000s, 05:35.000 --> 05:39.000 as not only just providing a, you know, like, a web 2.0 type kit 05:39.000 --> 05:42.000 that, like, made it easy to write web 2.0 apps, 05:42.000 --> 05:45.000 but teaching you to think of that mindset, right? 05:45.000 --> 05:48.000 You know, now, granted that mindset was really built for 05:48.000 --> 05:52.000 for for-profit corporations that would have this large dev-off team, 05:52.000 --> 05:56.000 and so on and so forth, and are considered about scaling up, right? 05:56.000 --> 05:59.000 You know, and, um, and, you know, sometimes if you're sprightly people say, 05:59.000 --> 06:03.000 well, we're really, really about scaling down and scaling wide, right? 06:03.000 --> 06:06.000 And, um, but, but I respect that. 06:06.000 --> 06:09.000 When a system can not only make something easy, 06:09.000 --> 06:13.000 but actually make it so that it's the default, right? 06:13.000 --> 06:15.000 That's the goal of sprightly is the level tooling. 06:15.000 --> 06:17.000 And it seems strange sometimes we're like, 06:17.000 --> 06:21.000 we're like, oh, yeah, we're building a future of, you know, social networks, 06:21.000 --> 06:23.000 and people are like, um, of distributed networks, 06:23.000 --> 06:27.000 stuff and people are like, you're like doing computer science research. 06:28.000 --> 06:31.000 What's going on? Well, to this room, maybe it doesn't seem so weird. 06:31.000 --> 06:33.000 You know, you got a lot of CS nerds in here and stuff. 06:33.000 --> 06:35.000 Uh, I'm not a CS person, by the way. 06:35.000 --> 06:36.000 I tricked you. 06:36.000 --> 06:38.000 A humanities major. 06:38.000 --> 06:40.000 Um, oh, boo! 06:40.000 --> 06:41.000 How dare you! 06:41.000 --> 06:43.000 Humanity of the majors are amazing. 06:43.000 --> 06:49.000 So anyway, um, we, so the, the thing is that, um, 06:49.000 --> 06:53.000 the, sometimes you actually need a foundation, 06:53.000 --> 06:56.000 and sometimes you need to step back and do research, 06:56.000 --> 06:57.000 that you can make things easy. 06:57.000 --> 06:59.000 When we started working on activity pub, 06:59.000 --> 07:02.000 actually during the majority of the time that we did any stuff with activity pub, 07:02.000 --> 07:04.000 people would be like, what are you doing? 07:04.000 --> 07:06.000 And I'm like, oh, you know, I do this. 07:06.000 --> 07:08.000 We're building distributed social networks and stuff like that. 07:08.000 --> 07:10.000 And people are like, that doesn't seem possible. 07:10.000 --> 07:13.000 And then I'd be like, well, it's like email stuff like that. 07:13.000 --> 07:15.000 And people are like, uh, nice to look at it. 07:15.000 --> 07:17.000 Right? And then when people experience it, 07:17.000 --> 07:18.000 it's only like, oh, yeah, of course. 07:18.000 --> 07:21.000 And then suddenly you get like 500 hacker news articles a day 07:21.000 --> 07:23.000 that are like, oh, activity pub, you know, 07:23.000 --> 07:24.000 that's just a thing. 07:24.000 --> 07:25.000 Anybody could have done it. 07:25.000 --> 07:27.000 Right? Like, anybody could have done it. 07:27.000 --> 07:30.000 Right? You know, and because these obvious and retrospect, 07:30.000 --> 07:33.000 right? You know, when you, when you get to a point where you have enough there, 07:33.000 --> 07:34.000 it feels obvious, right? 07:34.000 --> 07:39.000 But you need these periods of time where you figure out what's going to happen. 07:39.000 --> 07:42.000 Um, but the problem is we're building this up, 07:42.000 --> 07:45.000 this capability secure distributed programming language. 07:45.000 --> 07:46.000 It's so awesome. 07:46.000 --> 07:49.000 But how are we going to get it to users? 07:49.000 --> 07:52.000 You know, Jeff, install geeks? 07:52.000 --> 07:54.000 Well, I have install geeks. 07:54.000 --> 07:56.000 And I, a lot of my friends install geeks, 07:56.000 --> 07:58.000 but a lot of the world is not using geeks. 07:58.000 --> 08:00.000 And it's not going to wrangle parentheses. 08:00.000 --> 08:03.000 I would like more people to wrangle parentheses. 08:03.000 --> 08:05.000 But a lot of the world is not, right? 08:05.000 --> 08:08.000 And, um, and I think it's actually smart. 08:08.000 --> 08:10.000 I'm all in on the parentheses. 08:10.000 --> 08:12.000 I think list is clay, right? 08:12.000 --> 08:13.000 When we, when we, in, 08:13.000 --> 08:15.000 and especially we talk about, you know, 08:15.000 --> 08:17.000 composable domain specific languages, right? 08:17.000 --> 08:19.000 It's one of the things that makes geeks so amazing. 08:19.000 --> 08:20.000 It has all these tools. 08:20.000 --> 08:22.000 They combine together beautifully, right? 08:22.000 --> 08:26.000 Kind of the, the, the clay-like nature of a list-based environment, 08:26.000 --> 08:28.000 means that you can compose together all these abstraction layers. 08:28.000 --> 08:29.000 Not like next. 08:29.000 --> 08:30.000 Try to compose, like, like, 08:30.000 --> 08:32.000 Lou, this config thing, and then you got batch in there, 08:32.000 --> 08:34.000 and it's like, it looks weird, right? 08:34.000 --> 08:37.000 But we're, but the thing is, is that, like, you know, 08:37.000 --> 08:38.000 if you look at, like, MIT, 08:38.000 --> 08:40.000 people have borrowed all these ideas from MIT, 08:40.000 --> 08:43.000 they're just mining MIT's history for decades. 08:43.000 --> 08:45.000 And, um, and then they're like, 08:45.000 --> 08:46.000 oh, that list thing. 08:46.000 --> 08:47.000 It's a pain in the past. 08:47.000 --> 08:50.000 Well, part of the reason why a lot of beautiful things have happened, 08:50.000 --> 08:54.000 the reason we keep returning to that research that happened in the AI lab, 08:54.000 --> 08:55.000 and stuff like that for decades, 08:55.000 --> 08:59.000 they had a very flexible environment where they could explore ideas, right? 08:59.000 --> 09:01.000 I don't think Sprite Lee's technology, 09:01.000 --> 09:04.000 people see all this stuff and they're like, why did you choose a list? 09:04.000 --> 09:07.000 Well, I don't think we actually could have figured out everything we figured out 09:07.000 --> 09:08.000 if we hadn't chosen that, 09:08.000 --> 09:12.000 because it would give us a lot of flexibility to be able to actually explore these ideas. 09:12.000 --> 09:14.000 And that's my defense, the steam, and the Sprite Lee Institute. 09:14.000 --> 09:16.000 But the thing is, once you figure out these things, 09:16.000 --> 09:18.000 people can borrow them and bring them to other places, 09:18.000 --> 09:23.000 but still, gobbling to the paradigm of how did you programming 09:23.000 --> 09:26.000 it composes with the rest of your steam system, 09:26.000 --> 09:28.000 but it's a paradigm for how did you programming? 09:28.000 --> 09:30.000 But introducing paradigms is not a new thing. 09:30.000 --> 09:32.000 We do it all the time. 09:32.000 --> 09:35.000 But we need to get things to users, right? 09:35.000 --> 09:38.000 So, hoot is a scheme to have a simply thing, 09:38.000 --> 09:41.000 and we've got several hoot people over here in the room. 09:41.000 --> 09:43.000 We got Andy, we got Dave, 09:43.000 --> 09:47.000 and we've got Julie the thing that made it possible for us to get hoot to users. 09:47.000 --> 09:51.000 If you check out the latest exciting article, 09:51.000 --> 09:52.000 you go to our news, 09:52.000 --> 09:54.000 oh, we probably saw this picture. 09:54.000 --> 09:56.000 It's gobbled in the browser, 09:56.000 --> 09:58.000 and if you just saw Jessica's talk, it's amazing. 09:58.000 --> 09:59.000 We actually have this. 09:59.000 --> 10:01.000 This was a big bet, right? 10:01.000 --> 10:03.000 The idea that we would be able to do a scheme to web assembly, 10:03.000 --> 10:05.000 was MGC wasn't even in browsers yet. 10:05.000 --> 10:06.000 It was a proposal. 10:06.000 --> 10:08.000 It was like, we're going to do the hoot thing. 10:08.000 --> 10:10.000 We hope this works, right? 10:10.000 --> 10:11.000 And it did. 10:11.000 --> 10:15.000 But sometimes you have to take that kind of bet. 10:15.000 --> 10:23.000 But what does it mean to move from a research project to something else? 10:23.000 --> 10:25.000 For several years, 10:25.000 --> 10:26.000 it didn't even have a website. 10:26.000 --> 10:29.000 This was actually the original sketch I did for one thinking about 10:29.000 --> 10:32.000 the first Spritely website. 10:32.000 --> 10:35.000 And that website actually ended up changing. 10:35.000 --> 10:38.000 This was the original Spritely website. 10:38.000 --> 10:40.000 Now, we have the new Spritely website, 10:40.000 --> 10:42.000 which looks pretty similar. 10:42.000 --> 10:45.000 It had this middle period where it looked pretty different. 10:45.000 --> 10:50.000 And you can see, I'm sketching on paper, 10:50.000 --> 10:51.000 oh, there's all these things. 10:51.000 --> 10:53.000 You see these little characters on the side here, 10:53.000 --> 10:55.000 like this monster manual of characters. 10:55.000 --> 10:58.000 And you see the ideas here. 10:58.000 --> 11:01.000 My friend Ayves said, maybe don't see a new world's weight. 11:01.000 --> 11:02.000 That sounds a little bit colonial. 11:02.000 --> 11:04.000 She is right, so we said social worlds away. 11:04.000 --> 11:07.000 But the idea here is that I was like, 11:07.000 --> 11:08.000 how do I make this exciting? 11:08.000 --> 11:11.000 How do we get this idea that this technology can be 11:11.000 --> 11:13.000 exciting and beautiful? 11:13.000 --> 11:17.000 And not just like this pile of computer science papers, 11:17.000 --> 11:23.000 but that we should feel something energized and beautiful about it. 11:23.000 --> 11:27.000 And you know, I'm doing this Spritely Institute website. 11:27.000 --> 11:29.000 You know, these various phases of like, 11:29.000 --> 11:32.000 we decided, oh, much more of a research institution. 11:32.000 --> 11:34.000 You know, like Spritely started out, 11:34.000 --> 11:37.000 it's like four or five years of just me working solo. 11:37.000 --> 11:40.000 And then basically three people co-founded it. 11:40.000 --> 11:43.000 Myself, Randy Farmer and Jessica Talon, 11:43.000 --> 11:45.000 who is the first engineer who wasn't me. 11:45.000 --> 11:48.000 And like we, and you know, 11:48.000 --> 11:50.000 with a big change to move from this thing, 11:50.000 --> 11:53.000 we're just a solo project to where we're going to go. 11:53.000 --> 11:57.000 And you know, I'm talking a little bit about the aesthetics. 11:57.000 --> 11:59.000 I'm going to talk a little bit more about it 11:59.000 --> 12:04.000 because we're the aesthetics that some thought it's behind them. 12:04.000 --> 12:09.000 The thing is is that building out a vision 12:09.000 --> 12:13.000 of what we could have, you know, 12:13.000 --> 12:14.000 I'm just going to jump ahead. 12:14.000 --> 12:16.000 I'm going to show you this. 12:16.000 --> 12:18.000 Here's a bunch of these characters sitting around the thing. 12:18.000 --> 12:20.000 I'm saying like, oh, we're going to make it exciting, 12:20.000 --> 12:21.000 etc. 12:21.000 --> 12:24.000 But you know, we have these cutesy things. 12:24.000 --> 12:28.000 This actually started with, oh, do I not have it? 12:28.000 --> 12:30.000 I dropped it. 12:30.000 --> 12:32.000 Oh, you know what I did? 12:32.000 --> 12:36.000 It's not important. 12:37.000 --> 12:39.000 This was the original version. 12:39.000 --> 12:41.000 I sketched these on a tiny index card, 12:41.000 --> 12:43.000 and I sent them the fantasy artist David Revalon. 12:43.000 --> 12:45.000 I'm like, hey, can you make these look cool? 12:45.000 --> 12:46.000 I'm very busy. 12:46.000 --> 12:47.000 And he did. 12:47.000 --> 12:49.000 He came up with this really cool set of designs. 12:49.000 --> 12:51.000 But why do we have all these things? 12:51.000 --> 12:53.000 Sometimes, frankly, scenes are overwhelming. 12:53.000 --> 12:55.000 We talk about, we've tried to pair it down. 12:55.000 --> 12:56.000 We're like, goblins and hoot, 12:56.000 --> 12:57.000 which has not even appearing on this thing. 12:57.000 --> 12:58.000 Right? 12:58.000 --> 13:00.000 And then we've got everything else. 13:00.000 --> 13:03.000 And it's like, too many things, maybe. 13:03.000 --> 13:05.000 Why do we have this? 13:05.000 --> 13:08.000 So to be able to build out the vision that we wanted, 13:08.000 --> 13:11.000 we had to have a bunch of new fundamental components. 13:11.000 --> 13:13.000 So I'm going to spend some time actually one of the things 13:13.000 --> 13:15.000 that we're doing on the new website is we're trying to put out 13:15.000 --> 13:16.000 the project plan. 13:16.000 --> 13:17.000 People have been asking about this. 13:17.000 --> 13:19.000 They're like, sprightly, it seems so cool, 13:19.000 --> 13:20.000 but where are you going? 13:20.000 --> 13:22.000 And that's what I'm actually going to be talking 13:22.000 --> 13:24.000 in this talk about is where we're going. 13:27.000 --> 13:30.000 And then it's been in the plan all along. 13:30.000 --> 13:34.000 And the thing is, if you scroll this old sprightly website, 13:34.000 --> 13:38.000 you just see this monster manual of characters comes up 13:38.000 --> 13:40.000 and it's like, oh, what's sprightly going to do? 13:40.000 --> 13:41.000 Can they take this on? 13:41.000 --> 13:43.000 We'll just do a couple of things. 13:43.000 --> 13:45.000 We'll build a distributed programming environment, 13:45.000 --> 13:47.000 no big deal, build portable encrypted storage 13:47.000 --> 13:48.000 that's probably easy. 13:48.000 --> 13:49.000 We'll do content. 13:49.000 --> 13:51.000 The rethink how we do identity. 13:51.000 --> 13:52.000 That's fine. 13:52.000 --> 13:55.000 We're going to do a whole mapping over the edge of activity 13:55.000 --> 13:58.000 published in addition to the new spec that we're writing. 13:58.000 --> 14:00.000 This distributed financing don't think about that. 14:00.000 --> 14:02.000 It doesn't have to do a blockchains, 14:02.000 --> 14:03.000 so that's actually the really interesting thing. 14:03.000 --> 14:04.000 I will get back to it. 14:04.000 --> 14:09.000 And then there's this and safely execute code. 14:09.000 --> 14:11.000 And then there's this whole thing that's like, 14:11.000 --> 14:12.000 oh, we're going to do a video game, 14:12.000 --> 14:14.000 and the distributed virtual worlds. 14:14.000 --> 14:16.000 And this is where fun days would be like, 14:16.000 --> 14:19.000 I thought you're doing human rights things, 14:19.000 --> 14:21.000 not making a video game. 14:21.000 --> 14:26.000 But there's this fun component that I want to talk about 14:26.000 --> 14:27.000 a bit more. 14:27.000 --> 14:31.000 But you notice just like I showed this whole thing about persistence. 14:31.000 --> 14:33.000 You know, it's serialized in the store of the world. 14:33.000 --> 14:35.000 And there's all these status markers on here. 14:35.000 --> 14:38.000 This one says it's like it's working pre-alpha. 14:38.000 --> 14:39.000 This is old. 14:39.000 --> 14:40.000 We actually have it now, fully. 14:40.000 --> 14:42.000 And we have a distributed debugging environment. 14:42.000 --> 14:44.000 The, um, 14:44.000 --> 14:49.000 Spritly was a research project that involved trying to find out 14:49.000 --> 14:53.000 how old the pieces come together to build a new vision of things. 14:53.000 --> 14:58.000 And I'm going to show you what that actually looks like as in terms of a more high-level thing in a moment. 14:58.000 --> 15:01.000 There were a couple of other things that didn't make it on the map. 15:01.000 --> 15:04.000 This was the thing that was, um, was like, oh, 15:04.000 --> 15:06.000 we're going to have a mascot for the network component. 15:06.000 --> 15:08.000 Well, we ended up calling that network component called, 15:08.000 --> 15:09.000 oh, captain. 15:09.000 --> 15:11.000 And at this point, it was called Boldil. 15:11.000 --> 15:13.000 Um, you know, and, uh, 15:13.000 --> 15:15.000 Later on, I, I commissioned David to review. 15:15.000 --> 15:17.000 One more thing called Navi. 15:17.000 --> 15:18.000 And we never put this on the map. 15:18.000 --> 15:20.000 But this was like for the UI things. 15:20.000 --> 15:25.000 And this is the reason I'm pulling this one up right now is that this is where we're actually going. 15:25.000 --> 15:29.000 You see that giant stack of the monster manual of things. 15:29.000 --> 15:32.000 And it took a while for you can actually get things to users. 15:32.000 --> 15:36.000 But we're now at the point where we can start getting things to users. 15:36.000 --> 15:40.000 Um, so I'm going to, I'm going to, um, 15:40.000 --> 15:44.000 I think I'm going to switch now in this world of chaos. 15:44.000 --> 15:48.000 It is the way that I'm handling this talk and show a presentation I worked on with Randy Farmer. 15:48.000 --> 15:51.000 To try to explain like what, what the vision of things is. 15:51.000 --> 15:53.000 And time is a funny thing. 15:53.000 --> 15:56.000 Because this, I think this presentation really holds up. 15:56.000 --> 16:01.000 But in another sense, you know, like, I come, like, new hype appears on the horizon after you make a thing. 16:01.000 --> 16:03.000 And then you're like, oh, got to revise that. 16:03.000 --> 16:07.000 I'm going to show you it without revisions and explain it within context. 16:07.000 --> 16:13.000 I think it would have been in, um, 16:13.000 --> 16:16.000 2000 that we started working on about five years ago, right? 16:16.000 --> 16:18.000 Like, it was two, it's, they're not too tough. 16:18.000 --> 16:19.000 20, 20. 16:19.000 --> 16:20.000 Oh, yeah. 16:20.000 --> 16:21.000 We started this. 16:21.000 --> 16:22.000 25 years ago. 16:22.000 --> 16:26.000 That's how long we've been thinking about this now. 16:26.000 --> 16:29.000 It was, um, it was in, it was in 2020. 16:29.000 --> 16:33.000 But in 2021 is when we, we had the version of this that we were actually presenting. 16:33.000 --> 16:36.000 So here's, here's this person named Alicia. 16:36.000 --> 16:39.000 Um, and what we can see is that she's a, she's a multi-faceted person. 16:39.000 --> 16:41.000 She's a high school math teacher. 16:41.000 --> 16:43.000 She does tabletop games with their friends. 16:43.000 --> 16:45.000 And she's a fan fiction author. 16:45.000 --> 16:49.000 And she has these different contexts and different communities and different personas. 16:49.000 --> 16:55.000 Um, but we don't consider her duplicitous for having these different personas. 16:55.000 --> 17:00.000 Um, you know, she, she, she, she, she, so here's Alicia. 17:00.000 --> 17:04.000 She's got, um, she's a math teacher, as I said in high school. 17:04.000 --> 17:09.000 And she's, she, she is in, you know, like this, her, her educational, um, context. 17:09.000 --> 17:13.000 And she quicks on, um, her, her persona. 17:14.000 --> 17:19.000 Um, if, uh, her teaching persona, she switches to being able to switch between her different, um, 17:19.000 --> 17:21.000 persona's managed by this system. 17:21.000 --> 17:25.000 This is basically the mockups for Navi that we did, you know, very early on. 17:25.000 --> 17:28.000 Um, and, and you can see, she's got her teacher persona. 17:28.000 --> 17:32.000 She's got her, um, gaining persona and she's got her fan fiction persona. 17:32.000 --> 17:36.000 And, and then she has the, this thing, you know, like, the agents that, like, 17:36.000 --> 17:39.000 be the peer-to-peer user agent that we're displaying here on the right. 17:39.000 --> 17:40.000 You can see what this basically means. 17:40.000 --> 17:41.000 There's a person. 17:41.000 --> 17:43.000 But what does it mean to have an online identity? 17:43.000 --> 17:44.000 We have this sometimes. 17:44.000 --> 17:46.000 Every now and then people completely misunderstood the identity, like, 17:46.000 --> 17:49.000 Facebook's like, we're going to do a true name policy, like a true identity. 17:49.000 --> 17:52.000 And people, you know, like, people are moldy faceted. 17:52.000 --> 17:56.000 Um, in each one of these contexts, Alicia behaves differently. 17:56.000 --> 17:59.000 Um, and she's not a duplicitous purpose of the person for that. 17:59.000 --> 18:04.000 So she switches between them and this, this, this system is allowing her to switch between them. 18:04.000 --> 18:08.000 And the, the interesting thing is that, not everybody might know her in every persona, 18:08.000 --> 18:09.000 right? 18:09.000 --> 18:10.000 She might behave differently. 18:10.000 --> 18:12.000 But some people might know her in both personas. 18:12.000 --> 18:13.000 Right? 18:13.000 --> 18:17.000 Um, and then she hears this thing, Ben's gaming account, uh, hang out. 18:17.000 --> 18:20.000 And there's actually some of the components that I showed earlier, 18:20.000 --> 18:21.000 start appearing in here. 18:21.000 --> 18:24.000 Um, so I mentioned that we're doing a different identity system. 18:24.000 --> 18:26.000 One, think no DNS, right? 18:26.000 --> 18:27.000 There's not even a domain name system. 18:27.000 --> 18:28.000 That's centralization. 18:28.000 --> 18:29.000 We're going to do better. 18:29.000 --> 18:30.000 Right? 18:30.000 --> 18:32.000 Um, imagine this, like, you know, like, if you've ever used, like, 18:32.000 --> 18:34.000 Tauronian services, you see that just, 18:34.000 --> 18:35.000 yeah, you can probably key, right? 18:35.000 --> 18:38.000 You know, and that's your, your name, but the thing you're going to connect to. 18:38.000 --> 18:39.000 Nobody can memorize that. 18:39.000 --> 18:42.000 You know, Facebook's like, we're going to be clever and do Facebook core, 18:42.000 --> 18:45.000 www.onian, and then people can connect to that, 18:45.000 --> 18:47.000 and then that becomes a fishing target, right? 18:47.000 --> 18:50.000 Because it's like, you change one character and it's really hard to tell. 18:50.000 --> 18:53.000 Um, so, so, what, but it turns out, 18:53.000 --> 18:58.000 there's a way to be able to identify, understand what the, um, 18:58.000 --> 19:02.000 what, like, um, identity without a global context. 19:02.000 --> 19:03.000 In fact, you do this probably every day. 19:03.000 --> 19:06.000 On your phone, you probably have a contact list, right? 19:06.000 --> 19:08.000 And if you still use phone numbers, which, because actually, 19:08.000 --> 19:10.000 we have not managed to deprogate those, um, you probably, 19:10.000 --> 19:14.000 you have certainly not memorized all the phone numbers on your phone. 19:14.000 --> 19:17.000 But you have local meaning towards those contacts, right? 19:17.000 --> 19:21.000 So in here, you see, you know, like, the A star light is, like, 19:21.000 --> 19:23.000 you know, it's a pet name in here. 19:23.000 --> 19:24.000 That's what it's called. 19:24.000 --> 19:25.000 It's like a local, even though name. 19:25.000 --> 19:27.000 And then there's also these things with a question marks, 19:27.000 --> 19:30.000 and these dotted lines around these, these are self-proclaimed names. 19:30.000 --> 19:31.000 This is this character. 19:31.000 --> 19:34.000 This person named Carol that there's not an existing relationship 19:34.000 --> 19:36.000 is saying, I am Carol, right? 19:36.000 --> 19:38.000 And we've actually done implementations of this, 19:38.000 --> 19:41.000 Jessica did one, and then Dave did one. 19:41.000 --> 19:46.000 Um, but, you know, so, um, so Alicia goes over and she clicks on 19:46.000 --> 19:50.000 to Carol's profile, and she goes to send a message. 19:50.000 --> 19:53.000 And, um, and then this is one of those things 19:53.000 --> 19:55.000 we're also like, people sometimes like, 19:55.000 --> 19:58.000 ugh, but there's something interesting happening here, 19:58.000 --> 20:01.000 which is says, you don't have an established relationship with Carol, 20:01.000 --> 20:02.000 how would you like to connect? 20:02.000 --> 20:04.000 And it says, pay two stamps or after an intro. 20:04.000 --> 20:08.000 Um, the stamp thing here is actually just an idea for a very simple, 20:08.000 --> 20:11.000 um, like, like, not something that's a currency, 20:11.000 --> 20:13.000 but actually just something that allows you to, 20:13.000 --> 20:16.000 if you have no connection, be able to say, 20:16.000 --> 20:18.000 um, here is some sort of path that involves 20:18.000 --> 20:21.000 some amount of resistance for spam and, um, and 20:21.000 --> 20:23.000 unwanted messages for resistance. 20:23.000 --> 20:26.000 But the preferred path is asked for intro. 20:26.000 --> 20:30.000 The majority of the time, the way that you want to be able to have a contact, 20:30.000 --> 20:33.000 effectively, if you don't have, if you have an unmediaed 20:33.000 --> 20:35.000 contact environment and a peer-to-peer network, 20:35.000 --> 20:37.000 the preferred way to be able to do it is to do it for free 20:37.000 --> 20:40.000 to actually rely on the network of people you already know. 20:40.000 --> 20:42.000 Um, and so, one way or another, 20:42.000 --> 20:45.000 Alicia gets this, this contact over to Carol, 20:45.000 --> 20:48.000 and she gets this thing that's in capabilities would be, 20:48.000 --> 20:51.000 um, it's a revocable, it's called a revocable cat facet, 20:51.000 --> 20:54.000 but what you actually see is she has this capability 20:54.000 --> 20:56.000 that allows her to send a message to Carol. 20:56.000 --> 21:00.000 Um, but Alicia can blow up this connection at any time, 21:00.000 --> 21:02.000 like a fuse, right? 21:02.000 --> 21:03.000 You know, like, 21:03.000 --> 21:04.000 right? 21:04.000 --> 21:06.000 And then the message can't go through anymore. 21:06.000 --> 21:08.000 So, as if any trust is broken, 21:08.000 --> 21:12.000 there's no free path, some sort of path needs to be reestablished. 21:12.000 --> 21:14.000 I don't want to over-focus on the stamps thing, 21:14.000 --> 21:17.000 sometimes people are like, oh, is this some cryptocurrency thing? 21:17.000 --> 21:20.000 This is actually just one of many ways that you can actually handle 21:20.000 --> 21:22.000 if you don't know somebody, 21:22.000 --> 21:24.000 you can actually handle, um, 21:24.000 --> 21:26.000 you can, you can add some sort of other path. 21:26.000 --> 21:29.000 But I believe social relationships are the preferred way 21:29.000 --> 21:30.000 to be able to connect to people. 21:30.000 --> 21:34.000 So, um, so here you have, um, people talking to each other 21:34.000 --> 21:36.000 and saying, you know, oh, um, we're going to meet up. 21:36.000 --> 21:39.000 We're going to hang out, um, let's get some pizza, 21:39.000 --> 21:42.000 um, and like, you know, there's some, like, 21:42.000 --> 21:44.000 an example of, like, this simple payment thing. 21:44.000 --> 21:46.000 Um, but the, um, here's another thing that, like, 21:46.000 --> 21:48.000 it's like, post NFTs, it's like, oh, 21:48.000 --> 21:51.000 god, I wish we hadn't put this in the presentation. 21:51.000 --> 21:53.000 There's something more important here. 21:53.000 --> 21:56.000 The idea is that there's an application that you don't trust 21:56.000 --> 21:58.000 and you're going to install it, right? 21:58.000 --> 21:59.000 We could have done anything here. 21:59.000 --> 22:01.000 It just happened, oh, I'll explain why for a second 22:01.000 --> 22:03.000 of this particular thing happened. 22:03.000 --> 22:05.000 But there's an untrusted application that comes in. 22:05.000 --> 22:07.000 And think about when you have, 22:07.000 --> 22:11.000 somebody emails you solitaire.exe, do you want it? 22:11.000 --> 22:15.000 No? Why not? You should be able to, right? 22:15.000 --> 22:17.000 If you were an accountability-based environment, 22:17.000 --> 22:19.000 you should be able to execute solitaire, 22:19.000 --> 22:22.000 and it would open up in a world where it has no powerful rights. 22:22.000 --> 22:24.000 No ability to open up your file system, 22:24.000 --> 22:26.000 et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 22:26.000 --> 22:29.000 Um, and this particular example, 22:29.000 --> 22:31.000 the person without any prior experiences 22:31.000 --> 22:33.000 able to install the application, 22:33.000 --> 22:36.000 um, and the thing is that, um, 22:36.000 --> 22:38.000 effectively, there's, there's different paths 22:38.000 --> 22:40.000 into being able to access these different parts of, 22:40.000 --> 22:42.000 uh, of this shared resource. 22:42.000 --> 22:43.000 Now, here we say a file system, 22:43.000 --> 22:46.000 but it could be any sort of, um, number of things. 22:46.000 --> 22:50.000 The thing is that there's not full access to this for anything. 22:50.000 --> 22:53.000 Um, and, um, and this, 22:53.000 --> 22:55.000 one, and so the person installs it to get this, 22:55.000 --> 22:58.000 um, this, this, this starter pack thing, 22:58.000 --> 23:00.000 which again, you know, this is pre, 23:00.000 --> 23:01.000 and a tease taking off. 23:01.000 --> 23:04.000 I wouldn't have chosen a trading card game if I knew that was going to happen. 23:04.000 --> 23:06.000 But, um, but the interesting thing here is that, 23:06.000 --> 23:08.000 effectively, this is, um, 23:08.000 --> 23:12.000 the application is embedding something within another application, 23:12.000 --> 23:15.000 and actually embedding behavior within another application. 23:15.000 --> 23:19.000 Um, and it is, how the, but it's using the same pet name system 23:19.000 --> 23:21.000 so that you could have a hold that accountable as a particular thing. 23:21.000 --> 23:25.000 Um, and, um, and so, here they're claiming that, 23:25.000 --> 23:27.000 they blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 23:27.000 --> 23:29.000 They go and they battle, and this was Randy Farmer, 23:29.000 --> 23:30.000 Michael Funderhead. 23:30.000 --> 23:31.000 Like, his, his, uh, um, 23:31.000 --> 23:34.000 12 year old kid designed this mock-up like in, like, 23:34.000 --> 23:36.000 like, like 20 years prior, we're like, blah, blah, 23:36.000 --> 23:37.000 he'll see that. 23:37.000 --> 23:39.000 Um, but, you know, the, the, the point. 23:39.000 --> 23:42.000 But that's, effectively the point, the thing. 23:42.000 --> 23:44.000 I haven't really shown that presentation to anyone in a while, 23:44.000 --> 23:48.080 and a while. And it's probably because it's like, oh, we need to update it. We got to get 23:48.080 --> 23:54.800 make people not think we're trying to do that STs or those types of things. But I kind of wanted 23:54.800 --> 24:01.760 to show it today because we're working towards the point where over this next year we're going 24:01.760 --> 24:07.840 to start doing more and more of the user-facing side of things. And there's some ideas that are 24:07.840 --> 24:12.880 in that presentation that seem, if you think about them a little bit wild, the fact that you 24:12.880 --> 24:18.720 have no central naming system that you're able to execute code you don't trust, right? That you're 24:18.720 --> 24:22.720 able to have distributed programming where people are cooperating over a peer-to-peer network 24:22.720 --> 24:28.080 and they have a natural flow of things. It's not how we do things today. And we've been putting 24:28.080 --> 24:34.080 down foundations so that's the type of thing that you can do. I have a bunch of things that I open 24:34.080 --> 24:37.680 in case we wanted to talk about, but like really my colleagues have done such a good job of talking 24:37.680 --> 24:41.440 about them. What can I do other than say this is a cool gift? Let's just see it go again. 24:43.040 --> 24:50.000 Right? There we go. We've actually been, we have been doing mock-ups. So this one's the old 24:50.000 --> 24:55.280 terminal version. We built a more new web-based version. And this is something we've been using 24:55.280 --> 25:00.080 internally to tap actually. It's like kind of bringing back the old multiplayer text adventure 25:00.080 --> 25:06.080 type thing. Every now and then people get confused about virtual worlds. They end up thinking 25:06.080 --> 25:09.520 like, you know, like Mark Zuckerberg here's about this like, oh, we're going to put this 25:09.520 --> 25:13.440 bucket over everybody's head or maybe they'll get real chunky glasses. And then we're going to be 25:13.440 --> 25:18.960 living and fucking no crash. Right? And it's like you missed the point. Right? Because it's not about 25:18.960 --> 25:25.040 the interfaces that I and the O, right? It's not an input and output. The really hard part is how you 25:25.040 --> 25:30.320 actually make it so that you can securely cooperate. If you can do this in text, the 3D stuff 25:30.320 --> 25:35.280 isn't as hard. The hard part is a distributed peer-to-peer system. And being able to allow for 25:35.280 --> 25:40.320 secure cooperation. That's the hard part. So we've been using this internally, like little 25:40.320 --> 25:45.040 experiments. We do it kind of often on to go like two months of like, you know, just like we're 25:45.040 --> 25:48.640 using this every day and in hitting issues and then we're just like, well, let's go back to 25:48.640 --> 25:53.040 matrix for a bat and then we like do it again, like depending on kind of our development cycle. 25:53.040 --> 25:57.680 But the goal is this next year to start moving towards something where we can encourage more 25:57.680 --> 26:03.760 people to play with things. If you saw, I mean, it's possible that you did not watch Jessica 26:03.760 --> 26:08.160 Talon's talk though. If you are maybe not here in the room previously. This is a chat program 26:08.160 --> 26:13.440 that we wrote a few years ago. The interesting thing about this chat program is that this chat program 26:14.160 --> 26:17.760 there's a couple of things. One, it's a peer-to-peer system. It's using touring and services. 26:17.760 --> 26:21.760 That's why there's so much delay in this example. We've mentioned that you can swap out different 26:21.760 --> 26:26.480 net layers. So this is a pretty slow net layer. But here you see actually two 26:26.480 --> 26:35.520 guide programs talking to a racket program. And the code that handles the chat program, 26:36.560 --> 26:41.920 that handles the chat room and the code that handles the user, these messages are authenticated 26:41.920 --> 26:48.080 for which a user they're coming from. There's no, it's peer-to-peer and this is 150 lines of code 26:48.080 --> 26:52.720 for both the user code and the chat room code. This was written a few years ago. It's like a demo I 26:52.720 --> 26:58.400 put together when I was putting together a cap and the interesting thing is I first wrote 26:58.400 --> 27:03.600 together the Goblin chat program. This minimalist code. And I wrote it without mentioning the 27:03.600 --> 27:08.720 network once. Jessica showed you in just a few lines of code. You can hook something up 27:08.720 --> 27:13.680 like this amount of network bootstrapping thing. The interesting thing is that you can write 27:13.680 --> 27:19.680 your Goblin's program without even thinking about the network. The Goblin's abstracts the whole 27:19.680 --> 27:23.520 process about thinking about the peer-to-peer parts. You just focus on the code flow. So none 27:23.520 --> 27:31.200 of the core code I wrote thought about the network. And so the really interesting thing though 27:31.200 --> 27:34.880 is that Jessica poured at this and you can see it on the blog post. You can do this yourself 27:35.920 --> 27:40.560 in Firefox. We're using a feature not yet available in Chrome unless you turn on a flag. But 27:40.560 --> 27:47.520 if you say hello, it'll appear here and then stop. And this is using the same, this is using 27:47.520 --> 27:52.080 a cap and it's running in your browser. Now it's running a little fake network in your browser, 27:52.080 --> 27:56.560 just so that we don't have to keep some infrastructure while we're at phos them and like 27:56.560 --> 28:01.680 kick it and stuff like that. But it's actually using the very the very protocol or very peer-to-peered 28:01.680 --> 28:08.000 protocol. This is Goblin's on who in action. We're getting to the point where we can actually 28:08.000 --> 28:16.640 take care of stuff and make it more available to people. I think so I mentioned the game stuff. 28:16.720 --> 28:21.520 We've got a bunch of video games that we've done. I think this one, I think it's the most fun, 28:21.520 --> 28:26.560 it's called StriggerForm. And just to, you know, they've showed it off a little bit, but like, 28:27.120 --> 28:31.120 you know, like it's like if you like soco-bomb, like block-puzzle things, well it's like that except 28:31.120 --> 28:35.920 you have to solve circuits. But the cool thing is that you can do to get time and go backwards. 28:35.920 --> 28:39.200 And that time travel stuff that Jessica showed off at works in your browser too. 28:40.000 --> 28:43.360 So we've been building towards something. We've been building towards something where the 28:43.440 --> 28:49.920 really hard parts of doing all this stuff are taking care of for you so that you don't have to be 28:49.920 --> 28:55.280 an expert. So you don't have to understand every layer. You can focus on building the application 28:55.280 --> 29:00.880 you want to build. That's the future we want. I don't need to show you the space shooter. That's 29:00.880 --> 29:05.200 fun, but you can play it yourself. It's on Spritly.Institute Slash Arcade. Anyway, I got this 29:05.200 --> 29:10.560 at a donate thing again. It's another picture of Alicia. We want to support users. I'll leave 29:10.640 --> 29:14.080 a donate thing up for a second. But actually, you know what? I'm not going to do it. I'm going to do 29:14.080 --> 29:17.920 just going to open up a new thing and go full screen because I'm not sure what's going to happen 29:17.920 --> 29:21.200 when I ask people to come up and I don't want them to be blinded. But I'm going to actually 29:21.200 --> 29:32.640 make the Spritly crew come up here. So I warn them at that time. Dave, Jessica, Julie, and Amy, 29:32.640 --> 29:38.480 and Andy, you've got to come up too. Okay, you don't have to. Everyone else have to. 29:41.200 --> 29:50.560 I want to, I want to just talk for a second about, so yeah, well, sorry. So there's a reason why I'm 29:50.560 --> 29:55.920 doing this. You can thank Julie. Julie is going to hate me for that. Look at the face. 29:56.720 --> 30:03.120 No, okay, good. Well, the thing is, Julie said something that struck with me a few years ago or maybe 30:03.120 --> 30:08.560 maybe about a year ago. You know, you commented about how a lot of people may sometimes 30:09.520 --> 30:14.160 misinterpret like, you know, I go out and I talk about activity public. And then people get the 30:14.160 --> 30:19.840 impression that like activity pubs this Christian thing, right? And you sometimes don't see when 30:19.840 --> 30:24.640 somebody becomes like the, you know, the face of the thing that that person is not usually acting 30:24.640 --> 30:30.080 alone. And the, you end up with like these kind of Steve jobs and then get even worse. You 30:30.080 --> 30:35.280 on Musk versions of things where, you know, the person's like, yeah, I am this God, right? And, 30:35.600 --> 30:39.600 you know, so partly for my own sanity, I'm, I'm forcing this brightly people to come up on stage so we 30:39.600 --> 30:44.240 can talk about what people do to be able to make this type of work possible. So I'm going to start with 30:44.240 --> 30:50.080 Jessica. Jessica not only worked with me on the activity pubs back. We've been working together 30:50.080 --> 30:57.440 for over a decade, about 12, 13 years now, I think. Jessica came in as an intern throughout 30:57.440 --> 31:02.960 reachy. So if you've ever heard of outreachy, you know, you can thank Jessica, partly for us to 31:02.960 --> 31:10.080 having the fettivers. Because she came in and to, to do a, an internship to be able to add 31:10.080 --> 31:14.720 Federation support to media goblin. And then on accident, we ended up actually just working on 31:14.720 --> 31:20.320 Federation's specs for a while, and that was a real legacy of media goblin. But when, when the 31:20.320 --> 31:24.480 spray of the institute was moving towards a spray of the institute, you know, it was Randy Farmer, 31:24.480 --> 31:31.520 we did a bunch of work on, on like old peer-to-peer, like capabilities, security type things, 31:32.400 --> 31:38.240 who is doing the organizational side of things with me. But Jessica Talon came in and took a big bet 31:39.120 --> 31:44.240 and to, I was like, Jessica, I need somebody else. We've gotten to the point where this is not, 31:44.240 --> 31:48.960 like this is stable enough that we, I know this can work. But I need somebody else to come in 31:48.960 --> 31:52.400 and be able to understand this. Jessica became the goblin enchantress, because Jessica said, 31:52.400 --> 32:01.120 yes, unless for job at Agalia, and came to work with us. And, and, you know, learned everything. 32:01.200 --> 32:06.000 And, and got so excited about goblin, so she took it on as their own. So I just wanted to say, 32:06.000 --> 32:09.440 thank you, Jessica, and I'm going to, let's give a little round of applause. 32:11.680 --> 32:16.560 Agalia, you're next. What, you don't want to round of applause. So you can't give it round of applause for 32:16.640 --> 32:24.640 Dave, but I'm still going to, um, thank Dave. Okay. So Dave, so Dave, um, 32:25.520 --> 32:33.520 when Dave came in as, um, as engineer, um, inspirately, and like kind of a senior engineer type 32:33.520 --> 32:37.360 position, right off the bat, because of all the work he's done in the giling, geeks, and et cetera, 32:37.360 --> 32:41.600 tech communities, and, and how he and I have known each other for such a long time, and, 32:41.920 --> 32:45.600 you know, I knew about his work on video game engines, I'm not going to lie about that, but the, 32:45.600 --> 32:50.320 the, but also just, um, because I knew he was a wonderful person, the way that he treated people 32:50.320 --> 32:56.160 was really good, in addition to being really, um, really brilliant as a programmer. And, 32:57.200 --> 33:01.760 I took over as executive director when I was CTO, and, and that was a scary thing to do, 33:02.560 --> 33:07.120 because, um, you know, like, I, I think of myself as a, you know, primarily technical person, 33:07.840 --> 33:12.560 um, and I do this leadership thing on the side, and then suddenly I'm in primarily leadership position, 33:13.440 --> 33:18.160 and it was like this, what's going to happen? But I didn't need to be worried about it, because I knew 33:18.160 --> 33:23.920 Dave would fit into the role and be a wonderful leader of a team immediately, and he was, and, 33:23.920 --> 33:29.920 and Dave has not only done incredible things on, he did as distributed debugger, he did our, um, 33:30.000 --> 33:39.360 you know, he, he was along with Andy, um, developer on, on hoot, um, and, um, and, uh, but, but, but he, 33:39.360 --> 33:45.200 he's stepped into, to a leadership role in a way we really care about. And, uh, and Julie, 33:45.200 --> 33:49.920 is the reason we have goblins on hoot. Julie, Julie is our integration engineer. She's not only doing 33:49.920 --> 33:54.320 goblins pursuit, she also did goblins with Shepherd. I mean, she's, she's doing shovel, 33:54.320 --> 33:56.800 it's called Shepherd, you heard about, but she also is the one who did the goblins with 33:56.800 --> 34:02.320 hoot stuff. And Julie came in, took, went through a massive number of phases of converting, 34:02.880 --> 34:08.400 bit by bit, goblins, that it was able to work on who, trying to port it piece by piece, um, adding 34:08.400 --> 34:12.720 hacks, and then making Dave and Andy go, oh, we don't want these hacks, and then fix them. 34:12.720 --> 34:18.000 And that was a story of who's becoming a usable system was like, but, but it took somebody who was 34:18.000 --> 34:22.480 really able to be, to, to really stick with it, and, and to learn a bunch of internals, 34:22.480 --> 34:26.000 and work with a bunch of really difficult tooling when it was not easy to work with. And so, 34:26.080 --> 34:30.080 thank you, Julie. So, um, so we, we will give a long-to-class for Julie. 34:32.960 --> 34:42.080 And finally, I wanted to say, um, thank you to Amy, um, you know, um, I am, uh, we had a very unusual 34:42.080 --> 34:45.200 job posting. We made up a title for it. Turns out they actually have that title for people 34:45.200 --> 34:49.120 who were on IT systems, and I didn't know that at the time, but, um, but like, you know, when I 34:49.120 --> 34:53.520 came in as executive director, it was immediately clear that I needed help, like I couldn't do 34:53.600 --> 34:58.160 this alone. And I needed somebody who could both be interested in the organizational side of things, 34:58.160 --> 35:02.800 but also could handle all the tech BS that we do. And so, I needed somebody who could like use 35:02.800 --> 35:07.200 ENAX day-to-day, and also help organize the thing and get excited about organizing the thing. 35:07.200 --> 35:10.880 Amy has been that person, and actually has done so many things inside the organization. 35:10.880 --> 35:14.480 And there's one of the only reasons that, well, no, okay, there's a lot of reasons. 35:14.480 --> 35:19.440 It's only reasons about, like, the things that I was feared about myself that I've been able to 35:19.440 --> 35:23.200 get past those fears to be able to believe that, you know, like, we're, I think we can do this, 35:23.200 --> 35:28.080 and I think we can make it. And so the last thanks, well, first of all, Andy Wingo, thank you, 35:28.080 --> 35:34.560 but I know you don't want me to thank you any further, so I'm gonna stop. But, um, but I, I also 35:34.560 --> 35:40.800 wanted to say, um, thank you to our community, thank you to the people who have funded us, 35:41.440 --> 35:50.640 um, and, um, and, um, I actually, um, well, um, uh, you can, you can signal yes or no, 35:50.640 --> 35:57.440 but, um, no, no signals, so I'm not gonna do it. Um, the, uh, the, I'm actually gonna think 35:57.440 --> 36:01.760 Daniel Bryan, um, Danny, Danny in the back, um, Danny in the back, um, 36:02.960 --> 36:07.520 they're, Sprayley Institute has only partly been able to make it because Danny did his research 36:07.520 --> 36:12.240 and knew about all the history of everything that led to Sprayley, and we, we knew each other 36:12.240 --> 36:17.440 from when he worked at the FF, and he's really done a lot to organisationaly be there to support 36:17.440 --> 36:22.320 us and to support me to be able to make this organization happen. And the last thank you is to the 36:22.320 --> 36:25.360 community of people who have picked it up in the community of the future, which I hope you 36:25.360 --> 36:31.440 include Zalazio. There's maybe a weird talk. I'm talking about the, it's definitely a weird talk. 36:31.920 --> 36:36.080 It's not a minimal talk. It's not a minimal talk. It is declarative. 36:39.680 --> 36:45.920 But, every now and then, I think it's important to do something that's really big vision 36:46.560 --> 36:51.680 and Sprayley's a big vision thing and a risky thing in many ways, but I think we've actually managed 36:51.680 --> 36:56.880 to bring so many components to the point where they're working and that stuff is all coming together. 36:57.440 --> 37:02.560 And what I really hope is that many of you will find it be a coming excited and become part of 37:02.560 --> 37:07.840 things. And I really, and I'm thankful for all the community members who have pitched in. 37:07.840 --> 37:11.760 You know, it's never just an organization, an open source project, it's also the community 37:11.760 --> 37:14.960 who ends up being part of things that even if they're not being paid, you know, and sometimes 37:14.960 --> 37:20.240 especially if they're not being paid, but there's a lot of, you know, like unrecognized labor 37:20.240 --> 37:27.760 that often happens. So I'm going to stop here and bring it to Q&A. If you want, you guys 37:27.760 --> 37:32.720 can hang around on the page for Q&A, but you can go back to your seats. You can go back to your seats. 37:32.720 --> 37:39.440 Thank you, everybody. Thanks for the kindly true for putting up with me doing that last thing. 37:40.720 --> 37:45.920 How much time do we have for Q&A? 10 minutes. All right. Who wants to ask questions? 37:46.160 --> 37:49.840 I just want to ask you a lot of questions. 37:49.840 --> 37:57.680 CRDTs. Yeah. So the question is, what is the relationship between CRDTs and something like 37:57.680 --> 38:03.280 Goblin? So if you don't earn familiar with CRDTs or conflict-free replicated data types, 38:03.280 --> 38:11.120 very interesting systems, we are interested in them. So Goblins is about the kind of peer 38:11.200 --> 38:15.280 connection side of things is in terms of being able to do distributed programming. 38:15.280 --> 38:20.720 CRDTs are a particular kind of data structure, right? You can layer CRDTs on top of Goblins 38:20.720 --> 38:24.480 and it's something we've been very interested in doing. And if we think that actually, if you did 38:24.480 --> 38:27.680 that, it would have a lot of interesting properties because you could use our persistent system and 38:27.680 --> 38:33.120 everything. We haven't done it yet. So CRDTs are nice in that you can get messages from a number of 38:33.120 --> 38:38.240 different places asynchronously. You can come in in whatever order, everybody who has heard the same 38:38.240 --> 38:43.600 messages will end up at the same state. Not all systems require CRDTs, right? People have used 38:43.600 --> 38:48.720 IRC for a long time without CRDTs if you, you know, email for a long time without CRDTs. 38:48.720 --> 38:52.320 And a lot of systems can work great without them, but they can do a lot of useful things 38:52.320 --> 38:57.680 when ordering matters and all sorts of other things. The main thing is that Goblins itself 38:57.680 --> 39:03.680 does not use CRDTs, but I would like to actually have CRDTs implemented and integrated with Goblins. 39:03.680 --> 39:08.080 And I think there are some use cases in which it's very likely that we are going to turn to CRDTs. 39:08.720 --> 39:15.520 That's part of the answer. So, okay, any other questions? You, Danny. I'm sorry again for, for, for, 39:15.520 --> 39:22.240 sorry, I just find, so, for context of this, right? So, basically what you get at that, 39:22.240 --> 39:27.440 I've been involved in a bunch of different projects that have gone through these ages, but 39:27.520 --> 39:37.440 actually, the smoke that remains beyond is, um, there was a point with Rust, where Rust was just 39:37.440 --> 39:42.160 turning from being a sort of single person and that's what team and there's a lot of problem. 39:42.160 --> 39:50.000 And a general feeling that this was more widely applicable and can turn from being a tool into 39:50.000 --> 39:55.440 something that could actually execute some change in the world, right? You get people thinking 39:55.760 --> 40:03.600 about, secure, computing, and everything. And one of the things that's always interesting for me 40:03.600 --> 40:11.120 about Spikey is how, uh, these sort of continues this thing that we've seen talked about in a couple 40:11.120 --> 40:19.760 places in this room, which is about the original kind of list by dear and my key idea of making 40:19.840 --> 40:26.000 everybody's somewhat of the developer having that sort of intimate control with the users and also 40:26.000 --> 40:32.160 sort of user autonomy. And I wondered if you could touch them, sorry, this is a lovely question, 40:32.160 --> 40:38.800 but, um, how do you see, you've done a lot of work as a lot of people, we have with free software, 40:38.800 --> 40:46.400 like, how does, how, how to spritly fit in with, like, the free software as a whole and sort of 40:46.400 --> 40:51.440 a user autonomy. Is that, is it just an accident that it's sort of like this being that way? 40:52.720 --> 40:56.720 So this is a great question and it has about five questions in one, so let me try to summarize them. 40:57.760 --> 41:03.360 So especially since the, the stream may not have heard them, so Danny effectively brought up 41:03.920 --> 41:10.080 rust, the seat feels like the movement and rust moving from kind of a solo thing to, like, a larger thing. 41:10.080 --> 41:15.120 I think, and hope so, I gave some background here that I don't normally give about kind of the 41:15.120 --> 41:19.200 transition from the, the solo thing to kind of a group thing. And that's the reason why I brought 41:19.200 --> 41:24.720 all the spritly people up on stage, actually, with the show, this started as this kind of smaller 41:24.720 --> 41:28.800 thing, but actually, I think we're hitting a point where the interesting thing is, is now, 41:28.800 --> 41:33.040 I can be off doing organizational things and I don't have to worry about it because the spritly team, 41:33.040 --> 41:35.920 I'm like, you should be doing, oh, you're already doing that thing, right? You know, like Dave, 41:35.920 --> 41:40.800 like, it's, it's gotten to that point. So, you know, part of the thing, if the goal is to move it, 41:40.800 --> 41:45.520 so that it's not just like this core group of spritly people internally, but a bigger community 41:45.520 --> 41:49.760 that understands the vision, right? Because this was so much hard core research, and in some ways, 41:49.760 --> 41:54.560 it kind of required this insider view for quite a while. So, I do think, and hope, that we are 41:54.560 --> 41:59.360 moving from beyond the kind of insider view towards larger picture. It's one of the reasons that we 41:59.360 --> 42:04.560 all bet big-on-possed them this year, and on this room in particular, was that we know we're still 42:04.560 --> 42:08.560 in kind of the programming language, you know, like people who are willing to get there, you know, 42:09.200 --> 42:15.840 their hands dirty type, take the scenario, but we want to move increasingly to a point where it's 42:15.840 --> 42:22.480 a wider space. So, to the whole, like, you know, the reminder of, like, the list, the MIT history, 42:22.480 --> 42:28.800 that kind of area of research, how does that all tie in, right? You know, the MIT artificial intelligence 42:28.800 --> 42:33.360 lab, they have all these documents. Anybody could go read them, and in fact, I read tons of them. 42:33.360 --> 42:37.360 In fact, I read so many of them that somebody then gave me a secret archives in my house full 42:37.360 --> 42:42.800 of a bunch of MIT AI lab stuff that nobody else has. I would love to get it online at some point. 42:42.800 --> 42:49.040 But the thing is, is that the thing is that, you know, the AI demos are there, and anybody could 42:49.040 --> 42:53.760 read them, right? And there's this incredible amount of research that was done in this, you know, 42:54.960 --> 42:58.400 what, if you really look at it, in some ways, it's a short period of time, even though it's a long time, 42:58.400 --> 43:02.480 right? And it was by people who were very insider, right? You know, it was a bunch of people at this 43:02.480 --> 43:05.360 lab, they all knew each other, they talked to each other and stuff like that, and they figured all 43:06.320 --> 43:12.800 these things, and like, you know, like, jackets go by, and people are like, you know, we do need, 43:12.800 --> 43:18.640 you know, memory management that like, you know, see might not be enough. Maybe we do need, 43:18.640 --> 43:22.720 you know, this type of like, maybe we, you know, like, maybe we do need, and like, that's like, 43:22.720 --> 43:26.960 this whole, maybe we do need, and then you suddenly like, how were you to get pulled out of a dustbin, 43:26.960 --> 43:33.520 right? You know, stuff like that, all of these things, you know, like, the part of the goal of 43:33.520 --> 43:39.040 Sprightly is actually Sprightly's been doing that. Sprightly's been reaching into that and pulling things off the shelf, 43:39.040 --> 43:44.240 and how do we not end up at a moment where Sprightly stuff is just on the shelf, right? You know, 43:44.240 --> 43:51.120 I don't, what I don't want to happen is to have, you know, like, a decade go by, you know, 43:51.120 --> 43:56.000 the Sprightly has a project or organization, you know, like, you know, kind of diminishes, 43:56.000 --> 44:00.640 and then like, and then like, you know, like, another decade goes by, and then people are like, 44:01.200 --> 44:05.040 turns off the Sprightly stuff, people started to fix all this, and then another thing happens, 44:05.040 --> 44:10.000 where 5% comes out again, and then the rest of it disappears, right? I would like to do better than that. 44:10.800 --> 44:17.920 That's part of the reason why I'm, I'm kind of doing the big ask, the big picture, giving you the view 44:19.040 --> 44:24.480 of kind of the internals of how we got to this moment with Sprightly is I would like this to not be 44:25.360 --> 44:33.120 a, um, even though all the NITI lab stuff was there for anybody to read, it's still, I think, 44:33.120 --> 44:38.160 felt closed off from many people, and I would like that to not happen. I think we've done too much 44:38.160 --> 44:43.360 cool work. We have to get it out to everyone, and we have to get it even beyond just the schemers, 44:43.920 --> 44:49.840 but, um, but the schemers will be able to take advantage of it first and best. So, okay, 44:49.920 --> 44:54.880 and the other questions, we have any more time, or are we done? Okay, all right, good. 45:06.560 --> 45:13.520 Um, so it's basically how much you've, you can, what you can do is you can say, okay, start 45:13.520 --> 45:18.160 keeping track of history. It's not like, uh, so it's not like a blockchain, where like, you know, 45:18.240 --> 45:22.560 you just have this successive series of events that you then hold onto forever and, like, 45:22.560 --> 45:27.200 stuff like that. It's basically you, you can, you can say, okay, start storing this history. 45:27.200 --> 45:30.960 And then you, and it'll, it'll start from that moment, so what happens in the distributed 45:30.960 --> 45:34.880 debugger is that you actually turn, you, you, you turn it on for a specific that, 45:34.880 --> 45:39.760 and you can start playing with it. The part that happens automatically, though, is a transactional 45:39.760 --> 45:45.520 aspect. Time travel is an infinite amount of transactionality, um, but as kind of one or zero 45:45.520 --> 45:49.600 step amount of transactionality is when you have something that's in process and it fails and it 45:49.600 --> 45:55.840 rolls back in an atomic way. That's the part that greatly handles automatically. If something fails, 45:55.840 --> 46:00.080 the state changes that would have been associated with it get rolled back. And the messages that 46:00.080 --> 46:04.320 would have been transmitted from that particular thing are instead not transmitted, but any promise 46:04.320 --> 46:09.200 that's trying to listen to, wait to find out what the result is, is in form of an error. And so, 46:09.200 --> 46:12.720 that's, that's the, and that's the, and that's the part where we incorporate functional programming, 46:12.720 --> 46:16.320 but hide it, right? You know, like, we make the money out of the implicit, so users don't have to 46:16.320 --> 46:21.120 see it. Monads are planning, you know, like, we, we, we keep them from people. But can I just ask 46:21.120 --> 46:26.800 this to your question about the time travel stuff? It's essentially just kept in the process 46:26.800 --> 46:31.360 at the moment, and it's, you want to read buffer? Is, you set, you set the size of the 46:31.360 --> 46:35.760 read buffer? Okay, yeah, so I'm done. So, and you can do me customized how much history you're 46:35.920 --> 46:44.400 accepting. All right, I think we're definitely done, and I want to say, you should absolutely 46:44.400 --> 46:51.680 listen to Hishan, who is one of the best people here. And, um, things have to be finishing. 46:57.520 --> 46:58.800 The maker of ASTOP, okay?