WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:18.640 Okay. We're just about ready to start. So if you find your seats, I'll settle down. We're 00:18.640 --> 00:28.520 getting near the end here. I'm delighted that we have Lucas the Sota from the FSF Europe and 00:28.520 --> 00:34.520 he's going to tell us all about the battle for software freedom with Apple. Lucas, over 00:34.520 --> 00:35.520 to you. 00:35.520 --> 00:51.120 Hello everybody. Just a quick check. Is my sound good? Can you hear me well? Who? Good. All right. 00:51.120 --> 00:57.520 So I'm really, really thrilled and I'm amazed to be here. This is my forftime in 00:57.520 --> 01:04.520 Keynote and looking to this audience is a little bit threatening. I'm full of butterflies 01:04.520 --> 01:10.240 in my belly. But thank you very much for being here and for your undivided attention to this 01:10.240 --> 01:16.640 topic. I'm Lucas LaSota. I work for the Free Software Foundation Europe and for those 01:16.640 --> 01:22.760 who are watching us at home or here who are visually impaired, I'm about guy with beard. 01:22.760 --> 01:28.840 And we are in a room full of very beautiful people. And today the topic is how we are defending 01:28.840 --> 01:35.960 software freedom against Apple at the EU highest court. So the agenda, what we're going 01:35.960 --> 01:46.320 to talk today and what I would like to discuss with you a little bit today is about power 01:46.320 --> 01:55.080 of very large companies against software freedom. And in order to do that, I would like 01:55.080 --> 02:05.920 for us to have a small mind exercise, which I called an awkward neighbor. And as soon 02:05.920 --> 02:11.960 as we pass through this exercise to understand the power of this companies over software 02:12.040 --> 02:20.720 freedom, we'll talk about monocotors. And then the perils that the FSF has gone and 02:20.720 --> 02:28.120 is going still in order to defend software freedom against one of the most powerful and 02:28.120 --> 02:37.520 the most richest companies in the entire world. So let's go to our, oh my god, yeah, 02:37.600 --> 02:46.440 to our exercise. Think about you, you have a neighbor, right? And this guy is a little 02:46.440 --> 02:57.120 bit awkward, you know? And why it's, he's a little bit awkward. Because well, you invite 02:57.120 --> 03:08.560 him to your home and he just stays there. And then you call a pizza delivery and then 03:08.560 --> 03:14.600 this guy takes 30% of the pizza or the or the cake that you order. And this guy's usually 03:14.600 --> 03:20.040 your energy even when you don't allow it. So it's constantly using the energy that in 03:20.120 --> 03:26.840 your home. And you know, when when you invite your family or when you invite other people 03:26.840 --> 03:34.360 to your home, he doesn't allow it. It controls this for you. And it never lives, right? It's 03:34.360 --> 03:42.200 look like our cats. It never lives. It controls people in our home. And yeah. But so I think 03:42.280 --> 03:49.560 perhaps, you're going to say, why are you making this exercise talking about an awkward 03:49.560 --> 03:56.200 neighbor when we are talking about devices here? Because I would like perhaps to propose for us 03:56.200 --> 04:02.360 this that gatekeepers are our awkward neighbor and who are gatekeepers? Gatekeepers are 04:02.840 --> 04:11.320 device manufacturers, device vendors, device and other organizations and companies that are commercializing 04:15.320 --> 04:25.320 devices. But they are acting as this awkward neighbor taking control of things that actually 04:25.400 --> 04:36.600 big lungs to us, right? So when we buy new mobile devices for an example, right? And we are thrilled 04:37.160 --> 04:46.280 to explore everything that this device has to offer to us. And the first thing that when you turn 04:46.280 --> 04:54.760 on your device, you are flashed with a screen that mandates you to create an online account in order 04:54.760 --> 05:05.160 to use this device, right? Or when you are not entitled to enjoy software freedom in your 05:05.160 --> 05:11.320 or your device, you cannot install software on it. You cannot only install software in it. You cannot 05:11.320 --> 05:18.760 have access to third party app stores on it for an example, right? So alternative free software 05:18.840 --> 05:24.840 app stores cannot run in such devices. I do think the gatekeepers act like this awkward neighbor, 05:24.840 --> 05:32.040 right? That are controlling our devices that are hampering us to exercise our food agency, 05:32.040 --> 05:44.760 our food control, our autonomy over the devices that we are actually using. And from where comes 05:44.760 --> 05:55.080 this power, this gatekeeping power of these companies, when they have this ability to actually 05:55.800 --> 06:02.920 put devices on the market in a way that when we buy these devices, our freedoms unlimited 06:03.000 --> 06:15.800 in such extent. And the power comes from market concentration. The device markets on mobile devices, 06:15.800 --> 06:25.160 they are extremely concentrated. Nowadays, Android and iOS have together 99% of the word markets 06:25.160 --> 06:38.120 of mobile operating systems. And both of them are proprietary. And Android has 70% and iOS has 27%. 06:40.680 --> 06:47.640 There's a lot of free software operating systems of their mobile devices, but they are just a 06:47.640 --> 06:53.080 fraction of it. And therefore, since these two companies, these two proprietary companies, 06:55.720 --> 07:04.680 literally they dominate the entire market, they can do whatever they want, right? And we as 07:04.680 --> 07:11.160 end users, we are trapped, basically, we are trapped in the power of these companies, in the 07:11.160 --> 07:16.760 terms of services, this companies, because they can do whatever they want with us. But we need to 07:16.840 --> 07:23.960 change that. We literally need to change that. When we think about ecosystem, and today, 07:23.960 --> 07:32.280 ecosystem is a buzzword, right? Everybody talks about it, right? Because ecosystem remind us 07:32.920 --> 07:41.160 of an idea of richness and diversity. And in an ecosystem, we have plenty of choices. We have 07:41.240 --> 07:46.840 freedom of choices, and we are free to choose whatever we want. We think of an ecosystem 07:46.840 --> 07:54.280 as something that is sustainable and fair. But look, when we check this set situation, what we have 07:54.280 --> 08:04.040 right now, we don't have digital ecosystems. We have a digital plantation, right? It is characterized 08:04.120 --> 08:11.000 by mono-coachers, by the absence of freedom of choice. And it is high, 08:11.720 --> 08:18.680 high-snow-trailities that our devices should be neutral in relation to the softer that we are running on it. 08:18.680 --> 08:25.400 So, basically, a device manufacturers, devices, vendors, they should not impose their own 08:25.480 --> 08:36.600 wheel on us to decide which type of software we want to run. Google devices, Apple devices, 08:36.600 --> 08:45.720 they are general purpose computers. It means like we should run each type of software that we want, 08:45.720 --> 08:53.080 and not be limited by commercial interest. We need to be able to run software in order to extract 08:53.080 --> 09:01.000 the most of their devices. So, the whole history of the free software movement is about 09:02.680 --> 09:09.720 people running software on their own devices. And therefore, the device neutrality translates 09:09.720 --> 09:19.480 into principles of software freedom, no lock-in and the user control of data. But perhaps someone 09:19.560 --> 09:26.920 would say this is perhaps too philosophical, because look at the word right now, we don't have that 09:28.040 --> 09:36.440 what we're going to do. And I would like to introduce to you to some progress in this area, 09:36.440 --> 09:43.880 some steps forward. It's not still, the heaven is not still the perfect solution that we still 09:44.440 --> 09:50.120 have. But here in Europe, we have something to be proud about, I would say, there are some 09:51.240 --> 09:58.520 developments in policy area, in legal area, that are path in the way for us in order to achieve 09:58.520 --> 10:08.040 in the future, perhaps device neutrality. Yesterday, in the policy dev room, we had an amazing talk 10:08.120 --> 10:14.920 by Mark and Promo, who gave us a very good introduction about the DMA. Please make sure to check 10:14.920 --> 10:23.320 it online. But why DMA, the digital market sector, this law is important for device neutrality. 10:24.280 --> 10:31.320 Now, my presentation will become a little bit bureaucratic fuel with some legalist terms. Please 10:31.320 --> 10:39.640 bear with me, it will be cool in the end, but bear with me. The digital market sector is a law 10:40.760 --> 10:51.320 that regulates economic activity of very large tech corporations. And what it means regulating 10:51.320 --> 10:58.520 economic activity. It means like the DMA has two functions to prevent market abuse from big tech 10:59.480 --> 11:09.800 and to open up the market for smaller competitors. So, perhaps you can already start to understand 11:09.800 --> 11:19.560 why this is important for us, because if there is a law that aims to open up the market for smaller 11:19.560 --> 11:27.560 competitors, perhaps this law wants to change exactly that. So, basically, the ones that are there 11:28.280 --> 11:34.920 in the bottom, the law aims to increase the diversity of this graph a little bit. And this 11:34.920 --> 11:42.120 is at least what we are hoping with the DMA. And how it works with this law? So, the European Commission 11:44.280 --> 11:50.520 designates the companies and the products and services that this law should apply. So, 11:50.520 --> 11:56.760 this law doesn't apply to all companies in the European Union. It has a list of companies, right? 11:57.560 --> 12:03.320 And since this applies to only very large corporations, is the corporation that everybody knows. 12:03.320 --> 12:10.440 The graph on Google, Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft, but there is still booking and guidance and 12:10.440 --> 12:19.560 Apple. Right? Apple, the hero of our presentation, was a designated gatekeeper in 2023 12:19.560 --> 12:29.080 for not for all the services, but for Apple App Store, iOS, and iOS, and the Safari browser. 12:29.800 --> 12:36.040 So, it means like all the Juicy obligations that we're going to talk about right now about it 12:36.040 --> 12:43.960 applies to App Store, iOS, and Safari browser. And here is what it's very, very interesting. 12:44.040 --> 12:51.400 And here's the Juicy part of the DMA. And DMA is very large. There's a lot of things on it, 12:51.960 --> 13:00.760 but I have just listed some of the most interesting obligations that concern software freedom 13:01.480 --> 13:09.160 and interoperability in general. For an example, we have exclusive obligations concerning 13:09.480 --> 13:16.120 installation and change default settings. We have rules about third-party software installation. 13:16.680 --> 13:23.080 People nowadays call it side loading. There are rules about interoperability with software 13:23.080 --> 13:28.280 and hardware futures. Rules about data portability, interoperability of messaging apps. 13:29.320 --> 13:38.600 And the good thing is that for no compliance, DMA has some good tips that some penalties, 13:39.160 --> 13:45.960 the commission can impose penalties that max up to 10% of the worldwide turnover of the company. 13:45.960 --> 13:50.600 So, if we are talking about companies with billions or trillions of turnovers, 13:50.600 --> 13:59.960 the penalty can be quite good. But here is where things started to get a little bit messy. 14:00.360 --> 14:09.000 Because as soon as the European Commission disignated Apple, as a gatekeeper, 14:09.880 --> 14:15.720 forget products and services that we just talked about, Apple was not happy with that. 14:16.920 --> 14:27.320 And the first thing that Apple did instead of setting a serious compliance plan with the law, 14:27.800 --> 14:36.200 they appealed against the decision, right? And they appealed against the European Commission 14:36.200 --> 14:44.920 decision, trying to dodge the DMA rules over the Apple App Store, iOS, and iPadOS. 14:46.520 --> 14:53.880 More than that, they claimed at the European highest court that the interoperability 14:53.880 --> 15:00.120 obligations of Article 67, and we talk about this article in a minute, as this proportionate 15:00.120 --> 15:07.640 in relation to the company's commercial economic interest. So, basically, they are saying that 15:07.640 --> 15:22.280 Article 67 is illegal inside the framework, right? And this is the article in all its glory 15:22.280 --> 15:29.000 that we are talking about. I love this article is a very powerful article. It's like a 15:29.000 --> 15:36.040 can opener, you know? Because with this article, we can really open some very tough infrastructures. 15:37.880 --> 15:43.000 And, along the way, we will write what is most important here. There's a lot of legalism. 15:43.800 --> 15:49.160 The gatekeeper, so the gatekeeper is the company, Apple. So, Apple shall allow 15:50.040 --> 15:55.400 providers of services and providers of hardware, for example, free software providers of 15:58.120 --> 16:03.480 free software project, free of charge, effective interoperability with, 16:04.600 --> 16:12.440 same hardware and software features provided by the gatekeeper. So, this is very powerful. So, it 16:12.440 --> 16:20.920 means like Apple should open infrastructure and provide free of charge, effective interoperability 16:20.920 --> 16:26.760 to the same features, hardware and software features that are provided for the gatekeeper. 16:27.720 --> 16:37.320 And that's why Apple fought very hard against the DMA, and they are scared of the DMA, 16:37.320 --> 16:43.320 because the DMA can really change the landscape here. Because now alternative app stores, free 16:43.320 --> 16:51.400 software, alternative app stores can request this. Alternative free software payment systems can 16:51.400 --> 17:02.680 request this and compete on the merits with Apple services and product. And this is how competition 17:03.000 --> 17:08.280 should be. If you think your product is good enough, then you will have the hearts and minds of 17:08.280 --> 17:17.080 your clients, not because of your monopolistic practices in the market, but because your product is good, 17:17.080 --> 17:26.280 and that's why we claim that they should compete on trustworthiness. And as soon as we saw that 17:26.520 --> 17:34.920 they Apple decided to appeal against it. Well, the red flag in the FSFU office, you know, 17:34.920 --> 17:40.760 we red and say, oh my god, we need to do something about it. And then Dr. Martin Hussovic, 17:41.800 --> 17:47.080 he's very known in the community, he's a great lawyer, he's a great scholar, a great professor, 17:47.080 --> 17:53.240 contact us and said, perhaps we need to do something about it. And hearing fostering last year, 17:53.240 --> 18:01.960 in February last year, we decided that we would intervene against Apple. So it was a super cool 18:01.960 --> 18:18.520 that now one year after. Thank you. And one year after it, I'm here to talk about the progress of 18:19.480 --> 18:32.600 this case law. So in February, we asked the court to intervene with, and I have to be quite 18:32.600 --> 18:38.520 frank to you, only to the fact that we were accepted in this court case is already a great victory, 18:38.520 --> 18:45.240 because this is a big dog's game. You know, the European Parliament is involved in this court case. 18:45.320 --> 18:52.600 Friends, the Republic of France is involved in this court case. You know, other large players in the 18:52.600 --> 18:58.520 industry are also involved in this court case. And there there is FSFU with 20 staffers there in the 18:58.520 --> 19:08.040 middle, you know, saying that softer freedom is important. But I would like to highlight what 19:08.120 --> 19:16.040 court already said, because when we submitted, we faced opposition by Apple, of course. And 19:16.040 --> 19:23.480 what the court in the August decision, when court allowed us to intervene, the court said, 19:23.480 --> 19:28.840 the case is like to have a significant impact on the supply of free software, free exchange of 19:28.840 --> 19:35.800 information, and equal chances in accessing software. And then the court continues saying, 19:35.880 --> 19:41.560 such result would have an impact on an ability of developers of applications or free software 19:41.560 --> 19:48.120 to enter a connect, their application free of charge with Apple's iOS, which in turn would affect 19:48.120 --> 19:55.080 FSFU's ability to further distribute such software to as as wide as the public as possible. 19:56.440 --> 20:03.160 So the court recognized it, right? And then in September of 2027, we submitted our arguments 20:04.120 --> 20:16.200 via our lawyer, Dr. Martin Huzovic. And everything that we pushed back against Apple, 20:17.000 --> 20:25.000 and first we started saying that SSFU grows in complexity, interoperability is inevitable, right? 20:25.000 --> 20:37.080 And so actually this article here is the pinnacle of our recognition that if this company's 20:37.080 --> 20:43.800 grew in size, they need to give back, they need to open the infrastructure, so other smaller 20:43.800 --> 20:48.920 place can enter the market, and then we can have a fair competition, and we can have a more 20:48.920 --> 20:53.960 diversity in the market. So European Union recognized this and put this in law. 20:55.400 --> 21:02.520 And that's why we claim that Apple is being regulated in the light of public interest, right? 21:02.520 --> 21:08.760 And that's why they should respect and they should comply with these interoperability obligations. 21:10.040 --> 21:14.600 We also claim that interoperability is fully proportional to fundamental rights. 21:15.160 --> 21:20.360 We claim that interoperability is not against what people call intellectual property, right? 21:20.360 --> 21:25.480 I know this is a charge term, so we don't need to necessarily give all your patents or 21:25.480 --> 21:29.160 copyright in order to provide interoperable solutions, right? 21:30.440 --> 21:35.400 Last but not least, Apple should compete on trustworthiness. If they are good enough, 21:36.360 --> 21:44.200 they should not fear competition, right? If they are open their system and let's, 21:44.200 --> 21:51.480 let's the best win, right? And that's what we at the free software world are accustomed to, 21:51.480 --> 21:56.680 right? Everything is open, so if people like it, right, they will prosper. 21:57.640 --> 22:03.880 And that's why we think that Apple's products should compete on the merits, 22:03.960 --> 22:08.280 and that's why free software is smaller, free software alternative AppStores, 22:08.280 --> 22:11.320 free software alternative payment systems, alternatives, 22:14.440 --> 22:21.000 services that Apple provides that are provided by free software should also prosper in the market, right? 22:21.000 --> 22:25.800 And that's why we think that the image should apply in full force to Apple's AppStore, 22:25.800 --> 22:32.360 iOS and Apple OS. So what is the standard of the case right now? 22:33.320 --> 22:40.120 I would say 70% because, well, we already submit our positions and Apple already 22:40.760 --> 22:45.800 replied to them. Unfortunately, it's confidential, I cannot say anything about it, 22:46.360 --> 22:52.760 but we are now waiting perhaps for a hearing and then there will be a decision, right? But 22:55.880 --> 23:01.480 what the outcome of this court case is important for free software, how free software can benefit 23:01.560 --> 23:08.760 in winning this case against Apple? Let's start with developers, right? We do believe that 23:08.760 --> 23:14.520 if we want this case and then DMA, we are applying full force to Apple, we will have a more 23:14.520 --> 23:19.640 software freedom, right? Software developers will be able to demand that Apple 23:21.160 --> 23:25.960 allow installation of third-party apps and the use of third-party app stores in any 23:25.960 --> 23:32.920 installation of pre-installed software in devices. For example, a great example is that alternative 23:32.920 --> 23:40.920 free software stores would then be possible in iOS. We hope this court case in order to get 23:40.920 --> 23:47.320 better interoperability policies, right? Free software developers will be able to demand effective 23:47.320 --> 23:52.200 in the free of charge interoperability between their software and Apple's software and a hardware 23:52.280 --> 23:58.120 controlled by Apple's operating system. For example, free software payment system having access to NFC. 23:59.480 --> 24:06.440 And of course, for end users, we do believe that more competition will be beneficial for end users. 24:06.440 --> 24:11.720 We'll have enhanced freedom of choice. Users will enjoy more freedom of choice in regarding 24:11.720 --> 24:19.720 software on app devices. So, as we can see here, there's a lot of at stake, right? 24:20.680 --> 24:32.760 I do think that this case boils down to, if interoperability, as we know in the free software 24:32.760 --> 24:43.080 road, is still relevant for the rest of the digital markets. And I do believe it is. And I'm really 24:43.800 --> 24:51.960 happy to leave on these times into able to make these arguments. And 20 years ago, in 2004, 24:51.960 --> 25:01.240 the FSFE was also involved in a fundamental case against Microsoft. And we discussed interoperability 25:01.240 --> 25:08.520 back then, right? And now we have a new go-layer, right? There's also, again, is trying to 25:08.520 --> 25:15.240 to block interoperability. But with the power of our community, I do believe that we will prevail, 25:15.240 --> 25:23.080 right? And that's why I would like to ask for your support, right? Right? Now, being engaged 25:23.800 --> 25:31.320 on this court case, engaging with the digital makers, it requires us to be there, to talk to the 25:31.320 --> 25:40.920 commission, to talk to the European Parliament, to talk to national competition authorities. 25:40.920 --> 25:49.400 And that's why we need resources. We need resources in order to continue this fight in order to continue 25:49.960 --> 25:58.360 this work. So, please, there is a keyword code here. There is this link. Please donate to us. 25:58.440 --> 26:07.960 And I do hope that in order with your support, we will have an opener and more just internet. 26:07.960 --> 26:12.200 I think you're very much for your attention. 26:22.200 --> 26:26.680 Great talk. Great fight. Good news is we've got plenty of time for questions for Lucas. 26:26.680 --> 26:29.720 So, yeah, put your hands up and between us. We'll get the microphone here. 26:32.360 --> 26:37.800 Hello. Thanks for your efforts. Let's address the elephant in the room. The regime change in 26:37.800 --> 26:46.120 do you say and let's address the elephant in the room, which is called Trump, who said recently, 26:46.120 --> 26:52.600 out loud that, you know, European Commission, Regulation, blah, blah, so on. Form of taxation, 26:52.760 --> 26:59.960 basically, how are we going to play with this enemy? Yeah, this is a good question, actually. 27:07.400 --> 27:13.400 There's a lot of people in the US that understand that monopolistic control is also bad for people 27:13.480 --> 27:22.120 in the US, right? That's why I don't like to put the to frame this whole thing in the US of 27:22.120 --> 27:31.160 viruses, European Union, but it's big tech against everybody, right? I think the power of big tech 27:31.160 --> 27:37.160 is detrimental to people here in Europe, to people in Latin America, to people in Asia, 27:37.160 --> 27:46.360 in Africa, and also in the United States, right? How to do with Trump? I don't know. I'm not paid 27:46.360 --> 27:57.480 to do that. I mean, it is very, but I do hope that last week we wrote an open letter together with 27:57.480 --> 28:04.760 more than 40 civil society organizations here in Europe encouraging the European Commission to not 28:04.760 --> 28:13.720 step back, you know, to continue, to move forward with the remaining enforcement, to not be afraid 28:13.720 --> 28:20.200 of the political changes, and to do the legal work that they're supposed to do, and we'll be there. 28:20.200 --> 28:25.480 That's as if we will be there. We are in contact with the Commission. We are submitting papers there 28:25.480 --> 28:31.720 in order to make sure that the interests of free software developers are being heard in this 28:31.880 --> 28:39.240 process. Let's remain optimistic in this sense. 28:47.480 --> 28:51.080 Hi, thank you for your presentation. It was very interesting. 28:52.120 --> 28:57.560 I lost you. Can you? How? Yeah. Thank you for presentation. 28:58.440 --> 29:05.880 While I fully support the court case, he was talking about, I wanted to address some statements 29:05.880 --> 29:12.680 you made, which I think I bit misleading. First of all, you said that Android is property software, 29:13.320 --> 29:17.960 which is actually not the case because it's open source project, and anyone can register or 29:17.960 --> 29:24.680 contribute and push the code to Android. It's not like proprietary at all. It's actually 29:24.760 --> 29:32.040 there is part of true in Z, because device manufacturers apply things that are become like, 29:32.040 --> 29:39.880 make it more proprietary, but it's really nuanced. Then you also, in the next slide, 29:39.880 --> 29:44.440 well, through the slide, you also said that Google gate keeps from installing 29:45.720 --> 29:53.000 another operating system on devices, which is also not really the case, so I just spent a couple 29:53.320 --> 29:59.560 minutes. If you go to even plasma mobile.org, there are like four operating systems based on 29:59.560 --> 30:09.400 arch Linux based on day-by-end, and I don't remember, and I'll find Linux, and you can install them 30:09.400 --> 30:17.800 even on like Samsung device on Google Pixel. Look, whatever. Do you have a question? 30:18.440 --> 30:26.760 Yeah. I guess it's more of a common question, that it's like a bit misleading because 30:27.960 --> 30:32.680 while Apple is totally like, it's able, and it prohibits doing everything. It's not, 30:32.680 --> 30:36.520 eventually, exactly the same is Android. Thank you. Thank you. 30:37.480 --> 30:39.000 More question. We have one here. 30:43.000 --> 30:47.000 We have got the microphone running around. If you keep your question short, we can get more people in, 30:47.000 --> 30:57.880 sorry, fire. Thanks. Hello. Thank you for the talk. If you return your presentation on 30:57.880 --> 31:06.200 slide where this guy, it's 30% of the pizza and everything, but oh, I see this guy, he's like 31:06.200 --> 31:14.520 pretty, he's like smiling, he's like always good. He actually cleans your stairs also. 31:15.480 --> 31:23.240 Sometimes he prevents that somebody robs your apartment, and if he, it's like not 30% and 5% of 31:23.240 --> 31:26.040 the pizza, would you change your mind? 31:30.760 --> 31:41.960 Yeah. I mean, I'm not sure if you find the question, but 31:41.960 --> 31:49.640 I have been around in the regulatory debates on this, and many companies here in Europe, 31:49.640 --> 31:57.480 they would be okay in lowering down only the fees and not going full into the area of softer 31:57.480 --> 32:05.000 freedom, right? For them, they are proprietary companies as well, and if they can reduce the 32:05.000 --> 32:11.560 30% fees, for 5% that would be already massive when and then for them would be fine. 32:11.960 --> 32:17.240 That's why again, it's important to have a not-for-profit organization like the Free 32:17.240 --> 32:22.600 Software Foundation, but in these debates, in order for us to say, look, only lowering this 32:22.600 --> 32:29.320 fees is not enough. We need the software freedom. We need the vise neutrality. In order to push forward 32:29.320 --> 32:37.800 this agenda, otherwise, DMA and any other type of legislative innovation in Europe would be watered 32:37.800 --> 32:39.800 down by this commercial interest as well, yeah. 32:47.160 --> 32:52.200 Well, yes, if I quite understand, you said, 32:52.200 --> 32:58.520 European community chose the companies that the low apply to, and I was wondering on what 32:58.840 --> 33:08.840 criteria is something that's from lobbying of big companies inside the EU before the low apply to them. 33:10.840 --> 33:17.640 Can you repeat please a little bit? I'm sorry, I'm a little bit sick, so I'm a really deaf 33:17.640 --> 33:25.560 deaf, so it's not your fault, I'm sorry. You said you choose the company that the low apply to, 33:25.640 --> 33:29.880 yes, on what criteria are these companies choose to them? 33:33.080 --> 33:36.920 Can someone help me? Come again? 33:38.520 --> 33:46.200 Ah, okay, so it's about the gatekeeper criteria you mean, right? Okay, good. So, 33:46.200 --> 34:01.960 yes, the DMA meant to to simplify this process, because before that, in competition law, 34:03.240 --> 34:14.520 in order, we had different factors to consider what would be an abusive position in the market, 34:14.520 --> 34:21.240 so you needed to define markets, you have to define if the action taken is indeed uncompetitive, 34:21.240 --> 34:26.680 you know, and then you have to define the products and services and a bunch of stuff. 34:26.680 --> 34:32.600 And then the DMA just came, and then they set true criteria, it is criteria, 34:34.920 --> 34:41.640 I don't remember the numbers right now, but basically it's the number of clients that you have in 34:41.640 --> 34:48.280 Europe, right? And so it's very high, I don't remember, but it's in the areas of millions, 34:50.280 --> 34:59.080 and if the company meets the criteria, then the commission should look into the services, 34:59.080 --> 35:08.600 right? And just to give an example, in our court case, the commission has designated 35:09.480 --> 35:15.640 Apple App Store, right? But Apple is claiming that it doesn't has just one App Store, 35:15.640 --> 35:21.960 but it has several, and that's why the commission should look into it. However, we do believe that 35:23.720 --> 35:28.440 the policies that Apple has for App Store is the same for every App Store, and that's why 35:29.000 --> 35:34.520 the commission did a good job in designating this service App Store as a whole, right? 35:34.600 --> 35:41.080 But that's the correct area, okay? Yeah, we have some other questions there. 35:41.080 --> 35:47.720 Hi, thank you for the overview. I was wondering if what is happening with the other 35:47.720 --> 35:52.760 giant tech players? Are they signing with Apple? Are they just waiting to be designated as a 35:52.760 --> 35:55.480 gatekeeper? What's happening with the world or Amazon? 35:55.720 --> 36:01.720 Oh, my God. Can you repeat your question? 36:02.440 --> 36:10.040 So what about the other giant tech players? I mean, these companies are not the same 36:10.040 --> 36:19.720 as well, right? They also have several problems in the GMA. We monitor them, but we have two 36:19.800 --> 36:30.440 to prioritize, right? Apple is the most reactionary, most closed system right now, and it has taken 36:30.440 --> 36:37.400 a very aggressive position against the GMA, and that's why we are focusing on Apple, right? 36:37.400 --> 36:43.960 But there are others of three software projects that are working in the GMA, for an example, 36:43.960 --> 36:51.560 F-tryed, and they have raised several concerns as well against a Google for an example. 36:53.800 --> 36:59.160 But yeah, our work mainly here has been in relation to Apple, okay? 37:01.560 --> 37:06.840 Hello, it's just working great. Okay, I appreciate you work a lot. I'm just wondering, 37:06.840 --> 37:11.880 it specifies that they were designated as a gatekeeper for App Store, iOS, 37:11.960 --> 37:19.560 iPad OS, and so for a browser, is there any like movement to, I don't know, allow replacing iOS or 37:19.560 --> 37:27.000 iPad OS on their hardware or is it just about the App Store? Can you repeat your question, please? 37:28.200 --> 37:33.720 So I'm wondering if there's any like provisions for allowing users to replace the 37:33.720 --> 37:40.680 operating system on the devices to given that iOS and iPad OS were like mentioned as well. 37:40.840 --> 37:43.720 Yeah, okay, thanks. I'm interested in the question. 37:45.880 --> 37:50.680 Maybe I'm wrong and please detail the correct. I'm wrong. I don't think there is in the 37:50.680 --> 37:59.240 GMA an obligation to change the operating system, right? So I think that's a short coming 37:59.240 --> 38:07.800 other law. So you can install applications side load application, but there's no obligation 38:07.800 --> 38:17.320 to change the whole operating system. Hello. So a few years ago there was a few decades ago, 38:17.320 --> 38:24.200 actually, there was some legislation against Microsoft for having Internet Explorer pre-installed on 38:24.200 --> 38:30.280 Windows machines and there was no browser choice. Legislation was put forward and then 38:31.080 --> 38:35.480 we ended up in a situation where Google essentially just replaced that monopoly. 38:36.440 --> 38:43.000 How does the digital market sacked deal with the potential unintended consequence of replacing 38:43.000 --> 38:49.720 one monopoly with another? That's a good question. 38:57.000 --> 39:02.840 I would like to manage the expectations on them all, right? 39:05.480 --> 39:16.600 We don't, we must not put all our money, all our bets, all our eggs and ones on one basket, right? 39:18.440 --> 39:22.920 We at the FSEFE and we have already published this a lot and we have this agenda saying that 39:23.560 --> 39:33.240 DMA alone is not enough, right? We had a talk by Michiel Lennar's about Denji, right? And we were very 39:33.240 --> 39:38.040 sorry in this year, for an example, when we heard that the European Commission cut it funded for 39:38.040 --> 39:44.120 free software, when they cut the funding for the next generation Internet. So we needed to take 39:44.120 --> 39:51.480 a strategic approach in order to avoid what exactly you are talking about. It's not just enough to 39:51.480 --> 39:58.120 say, oh, we have the shiny DMA and the DMA will shape the future of the digital economy in Europe. 39:58.120 --> 40:04.760 No, actually, we need public money, public code. We need a whole change in the digital economy 40:04.760 --> 40:11.240 in order to avoid future gatekeepers, right? So there is a fundamental question with the DMA. 40:11.240 --> 40:20.280 Do we want to do this in trench, North American, in Chinese, whatever companies with Europeans, 40:20.360 --> 40:29.560 do we want a Google European version, right? We want a European Apple, or we want indeed 40:30.600 --> 40:37.560 decentralized democratized digital economy based on free software, on digital commons, or people 40:37.560 --> 40:45.640 have indeed freedoms to enjoy with their devices. This is a strategic question and I think DMA is 40:45.720 --> 40:52.280 very important. DMA, on the legal area, it's very important, but we need more. We need funding 40:52.280 --> 40:59.880 mechanisms for free software. We need policies that will change the future of the European economy 41:01.240 --> 41:02.600 and the DMA is just a part of it. 41:03.560 --> 41:07.560 APPLAUSE 41:12.360 --> 41:23.640 Hey, just one more question. I would like to know regarding the new TAI or LLMs integrated in the new mobile 41:23.640 --> 41:30.120 OS, like Apple Intelligence or Gemini, is there something already integrated in the DMA? 41:30.120 --> 41:34.520 Or is there something prepared on this? 41:36.840 --> 41:45.240 This is a good question. So the AI, I don't think is a core platform service, right? 41:47.240 --> 41:54.920 It's not one of the services I've been in products that the commission can designate. 41:55.560 --> 42:01.560 There is already academic work on this, claiming that AI and LLMs should be one 42:03.320 --> 42:08.760 service that the commission should designate, but this is still in discussion. 42:09.000 --> 42:11.000 Yeah. 42:18.680 --> 42:24.520 There is this inevitable argument that Apple will make that any kind of interoperability will 42:24.520 --> 42:30.840 carry security risks, that this will make their system, their beautifully guard 42:30.920 --> 42:38.440 the world plantation is called it, more open, and therefore more susceptible to relevant actors. 42:38.440 --> 42:40.600 How would you counteract that argument? 42:40.600 --> 42:49.800 Yeah, thanks a lot for this question. I would like to use the expression that Mark yesterday, 42:49.800 --> 42:56.440 he is wonderful presentation said that there is nothing more insecure than monocultures, right, Mark? 42:57.320 --> 43:03.720 And I also think that we are in a very bad situation when we need to 43:06.360 --> 43:15.880 to depend our security only one provider, right? So although Apple sells itself as a super 43:15.880 --> 43:24.200 secure, I don't think that there is enough evidence to show that Android devices are less secure 43:24.280 --> 43:35.080 than iOS devices, right? However, the GMA has some compromises, right? I didn't read the second 43:35.080 --> 43:42.760 part of this article because that was the compromise, but the compromise where I say is that indeed, 43:43.800 --> 43:51.720 the gatekeeper or Apple can limit interoperability on basis of the integrity of the operating 43:52.520 --> 44:00.280 system, right? God knows what is integrity here, you know, so can be a lot of stuff, 44:00.280 --> 44:07.880 and we have been countering this, right? So we have been in our court case, also we have been 44:07.880 --> 44:16.440 putting forward that we need to be very careful in order to not overstate the security aspect of 44:16.520 --> 44:23.080 it in order to hamper interoperability. To give an example, we have been working in the free 44:23.080 --> 44:30.440 software foundation year for more than 10 years for router freedom, right? And every time that we 44:30.440 --> 44:40.840 had to interact with with regulators or internet service providers, security was always a scapegoat 44:40.840 --> 44:45.480 against interoperability. They say you cannot use your router because it will damage the network, 44:45.560 --> 44:54.440 right? But look, last week in Germany, we had an amazing decision where the national regulator, 44:54.440 --> 45:01.320 the Bundesnetsogan Tour provided a huge document, 70 trade pages explaining that interoperability 45:01.320 --> 45:11.560 should be maintained, and the security risks were overstated. So network operators in Germany 45:11.560 --> 45:19.480 has always said that router freedom was against security, but then Bundesnetsogan Tour asked them 45:19.480 --> 45:25.800 and said look, okay, so you say there is a problem, please provide some evidence. There is just one 45:25.800 --> 45:35.240 case in 2016, you know, one case, it offers disruption of the network caused by a more function 45:35.240 --> 45:42.360 in the router. So, well, how many millions of subscribers are we having Germany using routers 45:42.360 --> 45:48.040 every day, 24 hours, and we had one case, so here in the app, I think is the same, you know, 45:48.040 --> 45:55.000 there are some nobody wants less secure devices. I want that my smartphone should be as secure 45:55.000 --> 46:01.080 as possible, right? But we should not overstate this, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, 46:01.160 --> 46:04.840 overstate this concerns in order to block interoperability. 46:14.840 --> 46:22.840 Presentation is said about a letter to the EU, uh, and my question is, uh, can we 46:22.840 --> 46:30.760 co-sign this letter, uh, as, uh, we are, I look at hackerspace that, you know, likes, 46:30.760 --> 46:34.920 fees of trades, et cetera, and is it possible to co-sign this letter? 46:36.920 --> 46:43.800 Uh, okay, uh, all right, thank you, no, uh, we already sent this letter, um, and it was, uh, 46:43.800 --> 46:50.200 unfortunately, not, uh, I'm sorry, we already sent, but thank you for asking. Do you have a time 46:50.280 --> 46:55.240 for one more question? Well, all right, one more question, and the last one, wow, this has 46:55.240 --> 47:04.280 be a very intensive round. Have you tried out, uh, tried reaching out to Azahili Nox, 47:04.280 --> 47:12.360 because they have excellent reverse engineering done on Apple hardware, and now we can 47:13.000 --> 47:20.040 use free operating systems on MacBooks. And here, basically, we caught the use them on iPads. 47:21.320 --> 47:30.040 Who? Azahili Nox, I'm going to write an email. Uh, okay, I'm summarized, all those things. 47:30.040 --> 47:33.400 If you can put me in contact with them, that would be great. 47:33.400 --> 47:39.480 All-direct is important. Okay, thanks a lot. Okay, guys, it was, it was, it was 47:39.480 --> 47:43.240 be awesome to be here with you. Thank you very much for your own invitation. If you're 47:43.240 --> 47:46.840 last time. I am a guest.