WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:11.000 We have Karen Sandler and Denver Gingerage with the growing body of proprietary infrastructure 00:11.000 --> 00:14.000 for fast development, repeating bad history. 00:14.000 --> 00:24.000 Give it up to them. 00:24.000 --> 00:27.000 Is this one on? 00:27.000 --> 00:29.000 Yes. 00:29.000 --> 00:30.000 Power. 00:30.000 --> 00:33.000 I love power. 00:33.000 --> 00:37.000 I'm just going to thank you so much for being here. 00:37.000 --> 00:41.000 We are not the people you expected to see on stage today, so I'm very excited for that 00:41.000 --> 00:46.000 applause for us because Bradley, our co-worker, was supposed to present today. 00:46.000 --> 00:52.000 And I have a statement that I want to read from him about why you get us instead of him. 00:52.000 --> 00:55.000 Bradley is heartbroken to not speak today. 00:55.000 --> 00:59.000 He lasted six years ago and was so excited to keynote again. 00:59.000 --> 01:00.000 I added this so actually. 01:00.000 --> 01:02.000 I'll try not to edit it. 01:02.000 --> 01:08.000 Fazem is unique event in the world and its organizers focus on community, not for profit interests. 01:08.000 --> 01:14.000 Those who saw Bradley yesterday know that he were a tight fitting and 95 mask, the entire day. 01:14.000 --> 01:19.000 As he did nearly the entire time since leaving his home for the trip to Fazem, 01:19.000 --> 01:23.000 he took his mask off only to eat, drink and speak on stage. 01:23.000 --> 01:30.000 Nevertheless, he tested positive for COVID-19 this morning for the first time in his life. 01:30.000 --> 01:36.000 He actually feels reasonably good and since he has received absolutely every recommended vaccine, 01:36.000 --> 01:39.000 his symptoms are just those of a difficult influenza. 01:39.000 --> 01:44.000 Bradley asks the entire Fazem community to reconsider their safety protocols. 01:44.000 --> 01:48.000 Bradley believes deeply in the moral and paritives of counting ethics. 01:48.000 --> 01:58.000 That, as this quote says more formally, humans have a moral imperative to voluntarily take every action so that it maximizes the rights and welfare of all humanity. 01:58.000 --> 02:02.000 As such, he is quarantined today for our safety. 02:02.000 --> 02:12.000 And while he does not call for a return to mask mandates, he would like Fazem to return to masks strongly recommended policy indefinitely for the years to come. 02:12.000 --> 02:18.000 And for all of you to wear masks voluntarily, especially when in the audience of crowded devrims. 02:18.000 --> 02:22.000 The science shows that masking works best in disease prevention if everyone participates. 02:22.000 --> 02:29.000 Bradley estimates anecdotally that fewer than 2% of attendees wore masks yesterday and at earlier fringe events. 02:29.000 --> 02:37.000 We should all commit to voluntarily, so we should all commit voluntarily to making that 98% because it's the right thing to do. 02:37.000 --> 02:41.000 So that was his statement. 02:41.000 --> 02:45.000 You, unfortunately, are getting us instead of Bradley. 02:45.000 --> 02:49.000 I think you, we may be a little bit more boring. 02:49.000 --> 02:55.000 Little less charismatic, a little less fiery, but we're going to do the best that we can to. 02:55.000 --> 02:58.000 It's like, has anyone here done slide karaoke? 02:58.000 --> 03:00.000 Like, or deliver somebody else to tell you? 03:00.000 --> 03:02.000 Like, I have full of people in here. 03:02.000 --> 03:06.000 It's where they put some slides up that you've never seen before and you have to give a talk. 03:06.000 --> 03:09.000 That you didn't prepare and you didn't have no idea what they're talking about. 03:09.000 --> 03:14.000 So we obviously, carefully about the issues that Bradley was talking about in this talk. 03:14.000 --> 03:20.000 But we are going to do our best to present to you the material that he had planned to present today. 03:20.000 --> 03:22.000 So let us introduce ourselves. 03:22.000 --> 03:24.000 So I am Denver Gingrich. 03:24.000 --> 03:28.000 I am the director of compliance at software feed and conservancy. 03:28.000 --> 03:33.000 And what that means is I am focused on our software right to repair efforts. 03:34.000 --> 03:40.000 Because copyright licenses are software right to repair and improve licenses. 03:40.000 --> 03:43.000 And so I do that through a number of ways. 03:43.000 --> 03:47.000 You can check out our booth to learn a little bit more. 03:47.000 --> 03:54.000 See the OpenWRT1 that we built and shipped started shipping last year. 03:54.000 --> 03:59.000 As a great example of this, what this right to repair gives you. 03:59.000 --> 04:04.000 And yeah, I'm just super excited to be involved. 04:04.000 --> 04:09.000 And here today to talk about this very important thing as well. 04:09.000 --> 04:11.000 Hi, I'm Karen Sandler. 04:11.000 --> 04:14.000 I'm the executive director of software freedom conservancy. 04:14.000 --> 04:19.000 As I think many of you know, I care deeply about software freedom for many reasons. 04:19.000 --> 04:23.000 But most specifically, because I have a her condition I was born with. 04:23.000 --> 04:26.000 And I have an implanted pacemaker defibrillator. 04:26.000 --> 04:29.000 And I can't see the source code in my own body. 04:29.000 --> 04:36.000 And living with a defibrillator made me keenly recognize the issues of the ethics of our software. 04:36.000 --> 04:39.000 So viscerally every day of my life. 04:39.000 --> 04:45.000 And in particular, in times when, for example, my defibrillator shocked me when I didn't need treatment. 04:45.000 --> 04:48.000 It shocked me unnecessarily because I was pregnant. 04:48.000 --> 04:51.000 And my heart was palpitating which is super normal for a pregnant woman. 04:51.000 --> 04:54.000 But my defibrillator thought I was in a dangerous rhythm. 04:54.000 --> 04:55.000 And it shocked me. 04:55.000 --> 04:59.000 And the only way I could stop it was to take drugs to slow my heart rate down. 04:59.000 --> 05:02.000 Such that it was hard to walk up a flight of stairs. 05:02.000 --> 05:03.000 I'm fine. 05:03.000 --> 05:04.000 Everything is fine. 05:04.000 --> 05:06.000 I'm actually asymptomatic now. 05:06.000 --> 05:09.000 And thanks to all different kinds of things. 05:09.000 --> 05:11.000 I'm totally okay. 05:11.000 --> 05:16.000 But it really stands for the proposition that our technology may not be made for us. 05:16.000 --> 05:18.000 And what will we do when that happens? 05:18.000 --> 05:23.000 And makes me really passionate about the public's control of its own software. 05:23.000 --> 05:29.000 And making sure that all of the software we rely on is ethical and that we have the software 05:29.000 --> 05:30.000 Freedom. 05:30.000 --> 05:36.000 And that is the driving force between for why and how we run our initiatives at the software 05:36.000 --> 05:42.000 Freedom Conservancy really about pragmatic initiatives that we can do that bring software 05:42.000 --> 05:44.000 Freedom to us now today. 05:44.000 --> 05:46.000 And the years to come. 05:46.000 --> 05:52.000 So today we're talking about the growing body of her proprietary infrastructure for fast development, 05:52.000 --> 05:53.000 repeating that history. 05:53.000 --> 05:56.000 And it's going to be fun because it's somebody else's talk. 05:56.000 --> 05:58.000 What we're going to give it. 05:58.000 --> 06:01.000 So here we go. 06:01.000 --> 06:06.000 So this is Bradley, Bradley edited the slides for us to give. 06:06.000 --> 06:07.000 That's right. 06:07.000 --> 06:13.000 And so this we've already heard a little about Bradley's thoughts on content today. 06:13.000 --> 06:17.000 So this is he would like us to share this quote here. 06:17.000 --> 06:24.000 And so I will read this quote as well in addition to the statement we've already read, 06:24.000 --> 06:31.000 which says, only according to that maximum whereby you can add the same time will that it 06:31.000 --> 06:35.000 should become a universal law. 06:35.000 --> 06:39.000 So Foss has a really long history now. 06:39.000 --> 06:43.000 And it doesn't repeat itself, but it does often rhyme. 06:43.000 --> 06:48.000 We're going to talk about one of the really important cases where that has happened. 06:48.000 --> 06:53.000 This is actually over 20 years ago now that this happens. 06:53.000 --> 06:59.000 And we're going to talk a little bit about where we are going from here. 06:59.000 --> 07:00.000 So before I go. 07:00.000 --> 07:01.000 Can we read Bradley's poll? 07:01.000 --> 07:02.000 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 07:02.000 --> 07:04.000 Just making sure I'm on the right slide for that here. 07:04.000 --> 07:05.000 Yeah, totally. 07:05.000 --> 07:12.000 So he wanted us to do a little, a little poll here to find out of all of you here. 07:12.000 --> 07:18.000 If you could raise your hands, we don't judge you or blame you for saying yes to the answers 07:18.000 --> 07:20.000 of these questions, we still love you. 07:20.000 --> 07:23.000 In fact, you're here, you're cool. 07:23.000 --> 07:29.000 So we want to know of any of you to raise your hands if you're using any of the following 07:29.000 --> 07:35.000 systems as a substantial portion of your contributions to a free and open source software. 07:35.000 --> 07:38.000 But people are raising their hands before we even ask the systems. 07:38.000 --> 07:39.000 Yeah, amazing. 07:39.000 --> 07:40.000 Yeah. 07:40.000 --> 07:43.000 So let's just go in order and we'll see. 07:43.000 --> 07:49.000 And maybe you just leave your hands up and we'll see how what percentage we have by the end. 07:49.000 --> 07:51.000 Microsoft Teams. 07:51.000 --> 07:55.000 Oh, that's like, let's say I can an eighth maybe. 07:55.000 --> 07:56.000 Zoom. 07:58.000 --> 08:00.000 Ah, it's like only half. 08:00.000 --> 08:01.000 Good job everybody. 08:01.000 --> 08:02.000 Just keep your hands up. 08:02.000 --> 08:03.000 Just keep your hands up. 08:03.000 --> 08:04.000 Just keep your hands up. 08:04.000 --> 08:05.000 Source forge. 08:05.000 --> 08:08.000 No, just a few hands went up in addition. 08:08.000 --> 08:11.000 Oh, I just lost the list of. 08:11.000 --> 08:12.000 Okay. 08:12.000 --> 08:13.000 Jira. 08:13.000 --> 08:17.000 Okay, like more people. 08:17.000 --> 08:19.000 Confluence. 08:19.000 --> 08:21.000 Bit bucket. 08:21.000 --> 08:26.000 Any of the many non-foss continuous integration systems. 08:26.000 --> 08:27.000 All right. 08:27.000 --> 08:29.000 So now we've got like three quarters. 08:29.000 --> 08:30.000 But here we go. 08:30.000 --> 08:31.000 Slack. 08:31.000 --> 08:35.000 Which, by the way, is now a Salesforce product. 08:35.000 --> 08:36.000 GitHub. 08:37.000 --> 08:39.000 Now I'm Microsoft product. 08:39.000 --> 08:42.000 Yeah, and GitLab's proprietary GitLab instance. 08:42.000 --> 08:45.000 The GitLab instance of your project not self hosted. 08:45.000 --> 08:46.000 Okay. 08:46.000 --> 08:47.000 So, yes. 08:47.000 --> 08:51.000 Of course, once we said, he says, once we said GitHub, the most hands went up. 08:51.000 --> 08:53.000 But I actually think it was maybe Slack. 08:53.000 --> 08:55.000 Yeah. 08:55.000 --> 08:56.000 So. 08:59.000 --> 09:00.000 Um. 09:00.000 --> 09:01.000 Right. 09:01.000 --> 09:02.000 Yep. 09:02.000 --> 09:03.000 Yep. 09:04.000 --> 09:06.000 So, so this happened a long time ago. 09:06.000 --> 09:09.000 This is what I was speaking of over 20 years ago. 09:09.000 --> 09:12.000 Uh, so there was this. 09:12.000 --> 09:14.000 Um, this tool. 09:14.000 --> 09:17.000 Many people may remember called source forge. 09:17.000 --> 09:21.000 Um, and so source forge, you know, seems. 09:21.000 --> 09:22.000 Seems pretty good. 09:22.000 --> 09:26.000 Like it was really the first thing that integrated all of these tools. 09:26.000 --> 09:28.000 Like the bug tracking. 09:28.000 --> 09:32.000 Um, and the version control and like a release like download section. 09:32.000 --> 09:33.000 And all of these things together. 09:33.000 --> 09:34.000 Yeah. 09:34.000 --> 09:37.000 Can we ask people to raise their hand if they've never heard of source forge before? 09:37.000 --> 09:39.000 If you've never heard of source forge, raise your hand. 09:39.000 --> 09:40.000 This is awesome. 09:40.000 --> 09:41.000 So, there is. 09:41.000 --> 09:42.000 Yeah. 09:42.000 --> 09:43.000 Good. 09:43.000 --> 09:45.000 Like I'd say like a 16th of the audience. 09:45.000 --> 09:46.000 Yeah. 09:46.000 --> 09:47.000 Definitely. 09:47.000 --> 09:51.000 So, the source forge was all things were going well. 09:51.000 --> 09:53.000 People were very happy with it. 09:53.000 --> 09:58.000 And then all of a sudden, some new things started to happen with source forge. 09:58.000 --> 10:01.000 Um, and they were not, uh, not super great things. 10:01.000 --> 10:06.000 Um, so there is this article, um, you know, you can search for that. 10:06.000 --> 10:11.000 Or just punch in that, uh, URL if you want, um, to, to check it out. 10:11.000 --> 10:18.000 Um, and, uh, this is, was a big deal because they started, uh, doing things like, um, 10:18.000 --> 10:24.000 uh, putting ads onto the website and, and many other things that were very problematic, 10:24.000 --> 10:29.000 uh, for, uh, for contributors, um, that didn't want to be tracked or, or otherwise. 10:29.000 --> 10:34.000 Um, and so, uh, this article, um, goes on about some of the issues and then eventually 10:34.000 --> 10:41.000 at the bottom, it talks about one of the, um, examples of, uh, alternatives that was being 10:41.000 --> 10:45.000 built had only been under development for about three months at the time. 10:45.000 --> 10:49.000 Um, and that, um, alternative here. 10:49.000 --> 10:54.000 Um, and I, I see there are, sorry, there are a lot more notes on exactly what is going 10:54.000 --> 10:59.000 on here, um, uh, with, with VA Linux, um, you know, this is all, as you can kind of see 10:59.000 --> 11:00.000 by the date here. 11:00.000 --> 11:04.000 This is a bit wrapped up in the dot com boom and wanting to make a lot of money, um, 11:04.000 --> 11:05.000 off of these things. 11:05.000 --> 11:11.000 And so, you know, that may be what, what precipitated some of this when the, the boom, uh, 11:11.000 --> 11:15.000 uh, you know, initial boom ended and they were trying to make some money out of, uh, 11:15.000 --> 11:16.000 uh, what they have. 11:16.000 --> 11:20.000 Yeah, I'm going to read Bradley's, like, rhetoric, because it's so good and it's so Bradley. 11:20.000 --> 11:23.000 Um, and so you'll feel like he's here. 11:23.000 --> 11:28.000 Um, during the dot com boom, VA Linux IPO, under the ticket symbol, LNUX, 11:28.000 --> 11:33.000 like airlines, Gams of the 1920s, where companies named themselves with ticker symbols that sounded like 11:33.000 --> 11:34.000 airlines. 11:34.000 --> 11:37.000 Many people thought that they were buying stock in this new operating system. 11:37.000 --> 11:40.000 They were just hearing about not one of the many service companies in the space. 11:40.000 --> 11:43.000 By late 2001, the dot com boom was over. 11:43.000 --> 11:45.000 Obviously, this is way before our time done. 11:45.000 --> 11:51.000 Um, Linux, LNUX, stock a tank, and as most fast companies do in times or 11:51.000 --> 11:52.000 times. 11:52.000 --> 11:53.000 Yeah. 11:53.000 --> 11:55.000 And so, uh, at the bottom of this, it talks about some of the alternatives. 11:55.000 --> 11:56.000 Yeah. 11:56.000 --> 11:59.000 And so, uh, at the bottom of this, it talks about some of the alternatives. 11:59.000 --> 12:00.000 Yeah. 12:00.000 --> 12:02.000 And so, article is by Louie C. Dush of Lee. 12:02.000 --> 12:05.000 And I highly recommend following his work. 12:05.000 --> 12:06.000 Absolutely. 12:06.000 --> 12:17.000 Um, and one of those, the one they put at the bottom of that article, if you read all the way through, is Savannah. 12:17.000 --> 12:20.000 Um, and so that had just been under development for a few months. 12:20.000 --> 12:26.000 At the time, um, and there are of course a couple other options that were available at that time as well. 12:26.000 --> 12:29.000 But it was very tricky because there were not a lot of options. 12:29.000 --> 12:34.000 And there wasn't, uh, an obvious one that everyone should immediately switch to. 12:34.000 --> 12:41.000 Um, and so that made things quite difficult for, um, for people who were stuck on source sports. 12:41.000 --> 12:48.000 Um, and I think is, you know, perhaps one of the things that, uh, we find concerning now, 12:48.000 --> 12:58.000 given that we're in a similar situation, um, and what, but we'll get back to that in a little bit here. 12:58.000 --> 12:59.000 Yeah. 12:59.000 --> 13:05.000 Um, the side note is that, uh, all of this was the catalyst for the HEPL license. 13:05.000 --> 13:10.000 And so that's where the HEPL license was born as an idea. 13:10.000 --> 13:15.000 Um, so, um, in this case, Bradley pointed out that the, um, 13:15.000 --> 13:18.000 that because VA Linux needed universal copyright assignment. 13:18.000 --> 13:20.000 Oh, speak closer to the microphone. 13:20.000 --> 13:30.000 Uh, in, in this case, uh, Bradley pointed out that, uh, pointed out that because, uh, VA Linux needed universal copyright assignment, 13:30.000 --> 13:38.000 what happened was they tried to get everybody to relicense their, um, their code so that they could proprietary license. 13:38.000 --> 13:41.000 And only a few developers held out, um, including Luke. 13:41.000 --> 13:52.000 And so, uh, basically, the, their code was written out because so many developers were okay with the real licensing. 13:52.000 --> 13:56.000 And so, we're, oh, hold on. 13:56.000 --> 14:00.000 I, I think we're good on those, that the source sports diaspora. 14:00.000 --> 14:03.000 Were there any other comments we had on that? 14:03.000 --> 14:04.000 Okay. 14:05.000 --> 14:08.000 So, anything you wanted to read about? 14:08.000 --> 14:16.000 Um, everything that Bradley writes is so good, but it sounds really different when it comes out of my mouth. 14:16.000 --> 14:26.000 So, I think, uh, you know, I, I think that he talks a little bit about why we had so much trouble getting away from source forage, 14:26.000 --> 14:29.000 um, because there wasn't a primary fork, but dozens. 14:29.000 --> 14:37.000 And, um, so he, he was, you know, looking at this list and, um, just saying that there were more at the time that it's, 14:37.000 --> 14:44.000 it's put the attention of the community so badly that eventually there wasn't enough leadership to move the, um, 14:44.000 --> 14:51.000 you know, to, to, to move to something more modern that users were looking for by the time of the, of the, of the 2000s. 14:51.000 --> 14:58.000 So, uh, really sad situation and really set the tone and the, uh, the space for where we are now. 14:58.000 --> 15:09.000 Exactly. And so then what happened in, uh, 2007, um, is that we had, uh, this person here, um, who acts, uh, 15:09.000 --> 15:17.000 Oskan 2013 said the GPL is a license of restrictions and I don't like restrictions just use MIT. 15:17.000 --> 15:22.000 Um, and so Bradley used to put the slide in every talk that he gave. 15:22.000 --> 15:28.000 So, so he's just seeing it, but he put it in deliberately here because he thinks that this is so relevant now. 15:28.000 --> 15:33.000 And, um, and looking back at it, really explains sort of where we got to with GitHub. 15:33.000 --> 15:47.000 Exactly. Um, and in, in this particular case, um, I believe we have, um, a bit more relevance for, uh, for this. 15:47.000 --> 15:57.000 So, so basically, um, this person was involved, uh, quite extensively in, um, in GitHub, um, and making it, uh, come to be. 15:57.000 --> 16:04.000 And so, uh, he's, uh, out of this part of, like, an unrelated HR scandal, um, but his impact on the company was very great. 16:04.000 --> 16:13.000 He was at all of our conferences, basically, saying advocating for non-copy left licensing and saying that we should really throw away all of our copy left, 16:13.000 --> 16:24.000 and only non-copy left permissive lacks licensing was the only way to go and was a very insistent and charismatic speaker that came again and again. 16:24.000 --> 16:31.000 And again, they, uh, he was behind some of the early choose a license that really drove people away from copy left licensing. 16:31.000 --> 16:34.000 And it was all part of this same mentality. 16:34.000 --> 16:53.000 And so that made, uh, GitHub a very, um, a very, uh, good fit, so to speak, for Microsoft, uh, when they acquired GitHub, uh, because Microsoft has always been very excited about the non-copy lefted boss because, um, uh, you know, 16:53.000 --> 17:07.000 because they, um, and, and I mean, you know, this could be up for debate, but I, I would say that they are maybe not looking out for, uh, your, uh, user rights and freedoms, um, as, as others might be. 17:07.000 --> 17:14.000 And so they would prefer to, uh, remove those abilities for you to, um, be able to modify and improve your software. 17:14.000 --> 17:24.000 Um, and so this was a natural fit, uh, because of this belief that, uh, that less restrictions, um, so to speak was somehow better. 17:24.000 --> 17:35.000 Um, and so that's what happened with, uh, Microsoft, and now we have, uh, Microsoft, uh, GitHub and things continued to go, uh, kind of downhill from there. 17:35.000 --> 17:47.000 Right, instead of, like, in the source forge situation where, um, when, when looking for profitability, the obvious answer was to do advertisements, right? 17:47.000 --> 17:54.000 Instead of doing that, um, the idea was to make GitHub more of a loss leader to get, to get developers to, to work there and to train them. 17:54.000 --> 18:05.000 I mean, I, you know, we run outreachy at Software Freedom Conservancy, which is a diversity initiative where we have paid remote internships for folks who experience discrimination of any kind, 18:05.000 --> 18:09.000 to get internships and, um, and work on free and open source software. 18:09.000 --> 18:16.000 And, uh, for most of the people coming in now learning to contribute to open sources, oh, I have to learn how to GitHub, right? 18:16.000 --> 18:26.000 GitHub is there is, is the way in and, um, and GitHub and Microsoft were really smart about that and understood that that was a way to, um, to really establish themselves. 18:26.000 --> 18:35.000 Exactly. And I, I, I like to, um, to quote this part, um, that, that Bradley wrote here, uh, because I, I think it's very good and relevant here. 18:35.000 --> 18:44.000 Um, Bradley mentioned that he presented his capstone undergrad project at an ACM conference in 1995, uh, at this conference. 18:44.000 --> 18:52.000 Uh, every single attendee was given a gratis copy, uh, that is free as in free beer, um, of Windows 95. 18:52.000 --> 18:59.000 Uh, Bradley confirms that this is the only Microsoft license of any kind that he has ever agreed to. 19:00.000 --> 19:14.000 Um, the point of Microsoft's methods are clear going back decades to get people addicted to our proprietary stuff by offering it gratis free as in free beer at first and then finding ways to sell add-ons. 19:14.000 --> 19:21.000 If you know Bradley, you'll really, and you know him now from this talk, you will appreciate that he wrote the words in his notes. 19:21.000 --> 19:26.000 While we don't like the term Bradley calls this free as in cocaine. 19:27.000 --> 19:35.000 I think he didn't think I was going to read that. 19:35.000 --> 19:41.000 And then a note, you can edit the above if you want. 19:41.000 --> 19:53.000 So meanwhile, um, in copy left land, um, it became obvious that, uh, the FSF USA was not able to do every possible task for the tool chain projects. 19:53.000 --> 19:58.000 Um, and so these are some of the things that are needed for these things. 19:58.000 --> 20:10.000 Um, and there was a compromise, um, in which, uh, the sourceware project was created and maybe you want to talk a little bit about the sourceware project. 20:10.000 --> 20:12.000 Yeah, I mean, some of them are here. 20:12.000 --> 20:13.000 Mm-hmm. 20:13.000 --> 20:16.000 Raise your hand if you're connected with sourceware. 20:16.000 --> 20:19.000 Um, so, right, I mean, yeah. 20:19.000 --> 20:22.000 Yeah, yeah, it's just an excellent project I think. 20:22.000 --> 20:23.000 Uh, round of applause. 20:23.000 --> 20:24.000 Yes, absolutely. 20:24.000 --> 20:36.000 And so all of this, uh, this infrastructure, all of this work is very difficult to do. 20:36.000 --> 20:50.000 Um, and so it's been great that we've been able to continue this work through, um, projects like sourceware, which specifically does a lot of this work for the tool chain projects. 20:50.000 --> 20:57.000 And so we're very happy that SFC is now, um, the fiscal home of sourceware. 20:57.000 --> 21:01.000 Um, uh, it is one of SFC's member projects. 21:01.000 --> 21:06.000 Um, and this is an excellent, um, an excellent resource that we have now. 21:06.000 --> 21:11.000 It's hard work, right, to maintain all the independent infrastructure, but incredibly important. 21:11.000 --> 21:19.000 And it's constantly under attack because it's so easy to shunt those services into these proprietary platforms and systems. 21:19.000 --> 21:24.000 But maintaining our independence for the development of our software is so critical. 21:24.000 --> 21:29.000 Because we lose so much when we seed control to these proprietary platforms. 21:29.000 --> 21:31.000 Oh, I didn't know there was this slide. Great. 21:31.000 --> 21:40.000 Yeah, and so, uh, and so, you know, this project was founded by people who were really devoted to all of this, these concepts. 21:40.000 --> 21:46.000 And it does have some servers that are located on some of this infrastructure. 21:47.000 --> 21:52.000 Um, but they are, um, they're, they're, they're fiercely independent, you could say. 21:52.000 --> 21:55.000 Um, and so that's what I really enjoy about the project. 21:55.000 --> 22:05.000 And, um, notably, it, you know, it is best, uh, it's serving these projects that are more focused on low-level CNC plus plus programming. 22:05.000 --> 22:13.000 And of course, that's, that's crucial, crucial infrastructure, um, to, um, all of the, uh, 22:14.000 --> 22:20.000 the operating systems that we use, um, and all of this great body of boss. 22:20.000 --> 22:27.000 Um, but there are a lot more projects out there than just those, uh, written in these lower-level languages. 22:27.000 --> 22:35.000 And so, um, it's good for us to have other alternatives as well. 22:35.000 --> 22:45.000 So, um, so we're really excited about some new projects coming out, um, like 4Go and apologies if I mispronounce that. 22:45.000 --> 22:50.000 Um, but I, um, let me know later, um, how I can change that. 22:50.000 --> 23:03.000 Um, and we think this is really good because it is starting where a lot of free software projects start, uh, which is trying to replicate something that is familiar to users, 23:03.000 --> 23:09.000 about giving you freedom, um, with that familiarity, um, and so we think that's really important. 23:09.000 --> 23:18.000 Uh, that's why we fund a lot of the projects that we do that, that is help our member projects, um, who are in a lot of cases, um, 23:18.000 --> 23:24.000 trying to make more freedom for, um, some familiar tools that people are accustomed to. 23:24.000 --> 23:32.000 Um, and so, uh, this is very important, and we're, we're very happy for projects like 4Go that are doing this. 23:32.000 --> 23:41.000 So, uh, that was where we end, um, from the slides. 23:41.000 --> 23:56.000 I mean, I would say that there's, there's certainly more to say, um, I think that we can't underestimate the influence of corporations and trying to control our development infrastructure. 23:56.000 --> 24:06.000 Um, there's a reason why these companies are so keen to have control over the way that we create our free software projects. 24:06.000 --> 24:19.000 And the impact of that, um, the impact of that control is already completely evident and visceral in our, the state of our technology now. 24:19.000 --> 24:29.000 Um, I, I, I, I think that when we look at where we are today with GitHub, we can see how far that has gone. 24:29.000 --> 24:42.000 There's a strong power imbalance, um, that exists right now, where, for example, free software projects that host on GitHub have access to some information about their contributors. 24:42.000 --> 24:52.000 But the companies that are a part of GitHub sponsors have access to aggregated data and tools that aren't available plainly to the public. 24:52.000 --> 25:02.000 And it's in the name of revenue to community, and yet, they don't provide the same features and access to individuals that are coming in. 25:02.000 --> 25:08.000 We've lost this level playing fields, and it's very hard to recover it again. 25:08.000 --> 25:20.000 And it's a lot of the same things that we've had before as well, like it was mentioned earlier that a lot of these things are provided free as in free beer to certain people. 25:20.000 --> 25:28.000 Uh, so for example, there are different, uh, different CI tools and similar that are only available. 25:28.000 --> 25:33.000 Uh, gratis if you're a fast project or or similar. 25:33.000 --> 25:40.000 Um, and so, so I think this is the sort of thing where they're trying to get you, get you hooked. 25:40.000 --> 25:42.000 Um, and I think we should reject that. 25:42.000 --> 25:48.000 Um, and we should say we need, uh, we need our freedom, our freedom to do these things. 25:48.000 --> 25:55.000 Um, and I would say if you feel it is difficult for you to get off of GitHub for some reason. 25:55.000 --> 26:12.000 Um, I would encourage you to check out our give up GitHub, uh, project, um, where we provide some templates, uh, where you can, um, indicate that you would like to leave GitHub, but there are some reasons you can't right now. 26:12.000 --> 26:21.000 Um, and, uh, and just definitely, you know, uh, it's important, I think to show people that, uh, that we are able to, um, 26:22.000 --> 26:25.000 uh, we are able to, uh, move away. 26:25.000 --> 26:36.000 Even if we can't do so right now, uh, that there is this growing movement of people, uh, that would like to, uh, move, but, you know, there are a lot of issues like network effects. 26:36.000 --> 26:42.000 I think that's one of the, the huge issues with, uh, with GitHub is that, you know, you log into your GitHub account. 26:42.000 --> 26:46.000 And then now you can star and fork into all of these other things. 26:46.000 --> 26:53.000 And of course, GitHub is not providing any API to let you do that with other things, like 4GEO or others. 26:53.000 --> 27:01.000 And so, you know, that's another part of the lock in that they're really using, um, to try to keep you using GitHub and not to go elsewhere. 27:01.000 --> 27:03.000 And what's sad is we built that network. 27:03.000 --> 27:06.000 Like that network is the result of our work as a community. 27:06.000 --> 27:11.000 We participated, we brought our projects there, and we're left with very little. 27:11.000 --> 27:21.000 The, um, if you go to our GitHub page, we, we don't have it up here, but we have this, um, really adorable little logo, um, that you can put on your page. 27:21.000 --> 27:28.000 But again, as Denver said, we're, we're cognizant of the realities of how hard it is to leave a system like that now. 27:28.000 --> 27:33.000 And so, the read me that we have that you can put into your repo is really simple to add. 27:33.000 --> 27:37.000 But just to show that you're using GitHub under protest. 27:37.000 --> 27:42.000 Um, and I think that we, it seems impossible that we can do something else. 27:42.000 --> 27:44.000 But we did it to begin with. 27:44.000 --> 27:47.000 So we can do something else. 27:47.000 --> 27:48.000 Absolutely. 27:48.000 --> 27:54.000 Yeah, I think that's, that's the really big thing is that we're, we're really strong, we're really strong community. 27:54.000 --> 28:00.000 And it's taking steps like these, which may be incremental at first and then grow and grow and build and build. 28:00.000 --> 28:07.000 Because as you see more people using this template, um, in their GitHub projects, then you, you feel empowered. 28:07.000 --> 28:11.000 And you know that other people are, uh, want to do what you want to do. 28:11.000 --> 28:15.000 Um, and I think that's a super important part of what we've done here. 28:15.000 --> 28:18.000 And, you know, but what makes this community wonderful. 28:18.000 --> 28:28.000 As the years go by with every passing month, the impact of our compromises to use proprietary infrastructure has more and more dire impact. 28:28.000 --> 28:38.000 And what's amazing to me is all of the ways that I could never have predicted that would come about that would subjugate the work of the software freedom community. 28:38.000 --> 28:53.000 I don't think that Bradley was intending to talk about co-pilot, but one of the impacts of putting everything that we, we're putting so much of our work on GitHub is that it is now easily the bulk of the training data for co-pilot. 28:54.000 --> 29:10.000 Which then takes the bulk of our, much of our work and, um, and includes it in such a way that, um, GitHub had to hard case not including the GPL in its output. 29:10.000 --> 29:19.000 Because early in early, um, iterations when you prompted it to help you with something most often, it would suggest, oh, you want to add the GPL. 29:19.000 --> 29:24.000 And that was because there was so much copy-lefted code in the training data. 29:24.000 --> 29:44.000 That's right. Yeah. I mean, the GPL is, of course, a very popular license and, and it's, I think it's interesting that, uh, you know, this, um, the, this tool, which is intended to kind of coalesce all of this, this knowledge, um, decided that, oh, uh, this copy-left thing is actually pretty important. 29:45.000 --> 29:54.000 And so never tell anyone, we will never suggest the GPL. That's, because we will tell, that is something we will never do. 29:54.000 --> 30:08.000 Exactly. So I, I think, you know, there, there's a bit of a, a funny come-up in here with GitHub being started by these people who, who really did, did not want you to use the GPL at all, like MIT, everything, 30:08.000 --> 30:19.000 because then we can proprietaryize it, um, and have our own fun without ever, um, contributing, uh, back. Um, yeah, I, I think it's just, uh, amazing that that has happened. 30:19.000 --> 30:36.000 And yeah, and another reason that we really need to, um, uh, we really need to, uh, stay, um, stay true to our, our principles, and, and, you know, be practical, as well, because it's, of course, not the sort of thing that everyone can do to just, 30:36.000 --> 30:39.000 turn off GitHub for all their projects tomorrow. 30:39.000 --> 30:48.000 No, these issues are really hard, like being able to pull together the resources to make alternative infrastructure and to support the infrastructure that we already have is nearly impossible. 30:48.000 --> 30:57.000 And it's in part because we're relying on all of this proprietary for profit infrastructure that creating the alternatives are really different, you know, really hard and really difficult. 30:57.000 --> 31:04.000 And so it's easy to sit up here and say, oh, we should give up GitHub and oh, by the way, we understand you can't give it up. 31:04.000 --> 31:09.000 So just put a protest in your, um, in your repo, and that's something. 31:09.000 --> 31:19.000 But ultimately, we need to find these solutions. We need to find other ways of doing it, and we need to establish that independence for software freedom communities. 31:19.000 --> 31:28.000 And we need to lean into our copy left licensing as much as we can, because it is the only thing that will create principled ethical software down the road. 31:28.000 --> 31:36.000 Because freed open source software is not something that was created just to enrich corporate profits. 31:36.000 --> 31:44.000 We work on free open source software because we want to do things differently because we believe that we should have rights with respect to our software. 31:44.000 --> 31:52.000 And by seeding all of our infrastructure, we subjugate and frustrate everything that we work for. 31:52.000 --> 31:57.000 And I think we can come together and support initiatives like sourceware. 31:57.000 --> 32:06.000 And there are others. And we should work on them all together. And we are working as hard as we can at software freedom conservancy to support these initiatives. 32:06.000 --> 32:12.000 And do more. And you'll hear more about us from us in the future. We'd love to hear from you and for you to participate with us. 32:12.000 --> 32:20.000 Absolutely. So I think we'll stop for a moment and open it for questions. Thank you so much for caring about this issue enough to be here. 32:20.000 --> 32:28.000 I know this is a complicated really important issue and we're so glad that you care about it. 32:28.000 --> 32:34.000 So. What's that? 32:34.000 --> 32:40.000 All right. We have a lot of time left. So questions. 32:41.000 --> 32:47.000 I see someone up there. 32:47.000 --> 32:55.000 Oh, and I want to say when you're up on stage here, it's really, really hard to hear. I know from previous times I've spoken here that it's so hard to hear you. 32:55.000 --> 33:05.000 So try to speak slowly and clearly and enunciate because it's all garbled up here. 33:06.000 --> 33:15.000 Hey, thanks for session. You're a good, a really good replacement, I guess. 33:15.000 --> 33:30.000 So the question is, there is like Garrett Hub, which is basically Garrett, which is open source system for the version control system. 33:30.000 --> 33:40.000 Was it like considered as alternative for for for replacing the GitHub basically because I'm seeing that it's not on the website. 33:40.000 --> 33:45.000 But it's very powerful system kind of. 33:45.000 --> 33:47.000 Sorry, which project is that? 33:47.000 --> 33:48.000 I'm speaking here. 33:48.000 --> 33:50.000 Garrett Hub. 33:50.000 --> 33:51.000 Delta. 33:51.000 --> 33:53.000 Garrett Hub. 33:53.000 --> 33:54.000 So Garrett? 33:54.000 --> 33:55.000 Yes. 33:55.000 --> 33:59.000 Okay. 34:00.000 --> 34:07.000 Yeah, what was it? So I checked your website. It's not to suggest it as alternative for GitHub. 34:07.000 --> 34:09.000 Is this a good reason for that? 34:09.000 --> 34:11.000 Oh, I see you. 34:11.000 --> 34:16.000 I mean, you check the give up GitHub website to see what the alternatives were and it was not listed there. 34:16.000 --> 34:17.000 Okay. 34:17.000 --> 34:24.000 Yeah, I mean, we're kind of in the early stages of really building up all of that informational material. 34:24.000 --> 34:35.000 And I think we should include things like Garrett on there as well because you're right that we do have a lot of other things that are part of GitHub. 34:35.000 --> 34:47.000 You know, like this CI CD stuff that would be good to good to include. So thanks for that suggestion. 34:47.000 --> 34:49.000 I want to ask a question. 34:49.000 --> 34:54.000 Maybe controversial to many, but I think we should discuss this. 34:54.000 --> 34:59.000 I think that free software doesn't mean free support. 34:59.000 --> 35:05.000 And we should rethink fundamentally our approach to issue trackers and back trackers. 35:05.000 --> 35:12.000 What was before like a nice community forum, people helping people and be friendly and users helping users. 35:12.000 --> 35:18.000 We have now like a fully professionalized support websites integrated with GitHub and other things. 35:18.000 --> 35:24.000 And I believe this should not be free or just simply free and it's a system and ability issue. 35:24.000 --> 35:26.000 We should rethink that. 35:26.000 --> 35:27.000 What do you think? 35:27.000 --> 35:29.000 So your question. 35:29.000 --> 35:38.000 It sounds like it is about some of the different support mechanisms that are available through GitHub. 35:38.000 --> 35:47.000 So I'm just curious if this is a specific kind of bug tracker or similar or is it. 35:48.000 --> 35:51.000 Yeah, I guess I would just wasn't quite sure. 35:51.000 --> 35:55.000 Here, maybe I can give you the mic for a moment. 35:59.000 --> 36:04.000 Just a idea of free support with bug truckers free support. 36:04.000 --> 36:08.000 The ability to expect this, but maybe this shouldn't be obvious. 36:08.000 --> 36:13.000 So people expect free support based on the bug trackers. 36:13.000 --> 36:18.000 And they yes, I think this is a general issue. 36:18.000 --> 36:32.000 I do agree that people may be confused different hobbyist projects that are available on GitHub with with the like for profit commercial projects. 36:32.000 --> 36:38.000 And they all have bug trackers that look the same, but in the case of hobbyist projects. 36:39.000 --> 36:41.000 A lot of times people treat them the same. 36:41.000 --> 36:47.000 They treat them as some sort of, oh well, these people must have lots of money or time on their hands because they're on GitHub. 36:47.000 --> 36:52.000 And so I'll just put my requests into this bug tracker. 36:52.000 --> 36:55.000 And I think that's a very important concern. 36:55.000 --> 36:57.000 I think there are a couple of parts of that. 36:57.000 --> 37:00.000 I think we do need to change the cultural a little bit. 37:00.000 --> 37:06.000 So people understand what some of the incentives are behind contributors. 37:07.000 --> 37:11.000 Because, you know, there may be projects on GitHub that are very commercial. 37:11.000 --> 37:16.000 And you know, they pay people to look at all of the bugs and to triage them and everything. 37:16.000 --> 37:21.000 But of course, for hobbyist projects, you don't have the resources for that sort of thing. 37:21.000 --> 37:28.000 And so I think there are a couple ways to to solve some of those issues through slowly changing the norms. 37:28.000 --> 37:33.000 And you know, maybe including some more documentation and information. 37:34.000 --> 37:40.000 Perhaps even, you know, changing some little notes about or interface changes where these things look differently. 37:40.000 --> 37:48.000 So yeah, I agree that's an issue we should look at as we are moving away from GitHub as well. 37:48.000 --> 37:50.000 Thanks for the talk. I really enjoyed it. 37:50.000 --> 37:55.000 It's making me think like I should go and check out for a J.O. and like finally maybe switch to it. 37:55.000 --> 37:58.000 But you know, I'm on GitHub and then I'm working on my project. 37:58.000 --> 38:00.000 I find a bug in somebody else's project. 38:00.000 --> 38:03.000 I just go and I file a pull request and it's so easy. 38:03.000 --> 38:10.000 And then, you know, when I'm starting my new project, I think about where I put it, it almost feels anti-social if I don't put it in GitHub. 38:10.000 --> 38:13.000 Because then it makes it so much difficult for everyone else. 38:13.000 --> 38:22.000 I wonder if you know, like is there any effort to do something like mastered on like federated for J.O. or something where all of the instances could easily file pull requests against each other? 38:22.000 --> 38:25.000 Because that would be like the thing that really kills that I think. 38:25.000 --> 38:27.000 Do you know if there's anything? 38:27.000 --> 38:33.000 That's a really good suggestion for to add activity support to for G.O. and similar. 38:33.000 --> 38:38.000 I'm not sure if that's happened. I think it would be excellent if people were working on that. 38:38.000 --> 38:41.000 I think it is parts of it are a little bit tricky. 38:41.000 --> 38:46.000 Because it's not exactly, you know, just posting something to a general feed. 38:46.000 --> 38:52.000 They need to be organized into issues and pull requests and other things like that. 38:52.000 --> 38:56.000 And so I think we should definitely be looking at that. 38:56.000 --> 39:02.000 And I agree that federating these instances will make them stronger overall. 39:02.000 --> 39:11.000 As we have seen with projects like mastered on and the activity pub protocol that it is built on. 39:11.000 --> 39:14.000 So there's a question. 39:14.000 --> 39:17.000 Okay, go ahead. 39:17.000 --> 39:23.000 So you have singled out GitHub, but I have noticed that not just code for this other problem. 39:23.000 --> 39:27.000 I mean, you did mention it kind of a few asked about teams and you asked about Slack. 39:27.000 --> 39:32.000 But I have noticed that a lot of open source projects are currently communicating over discord. 39:32.000 --> 39:46.000 And I'm like wondering, do you want to have a special website to prepare people from migrating away from those proprietary chat platforms that don't actually host code? 39:47.000 --> 39:50.000 Yeah, that's a really really good question. 39:50.000 --> 39:53.000 I think we should go beyond some of these other tools. 39:53.000 --> 39:57.000 Actually, I was in a dev room yesterday. 39:57.000 --> 40:03.000 And I asked this free software project, you know, where can I meet all of your developers? 40:03.000 --> 40:06.000 Because I would really love to discuss the project more. 40:06.000 --> 40:09.000 And they said, yeah, we're all on discord. 40:09.000 --> 40:14.000 And so I thought, yeah, that's going to be hard for me to join. 40:14.000 --> 40:23.000 I mean, partly because of the phone verification stuff they do, which is very difficult using the phone number that I have available to me. 40:23.000 --> 40:28.000 And so, and of course, it's proprietary as as you noted. 40:28.000 --> 40:32.000 And so I think it is important for us to go beyond it because you're right. 40:32.000 --> 40:37.000 It's not just the features that GitHub provides that projects are using. 40:37.000 --> 40:41.000 It is also these chat chat tools and similar. 40:41.000 --> 40:52.000 One of the volunteers gave me his phone to read from the chat, which is that some projects will close your issue if you don't donate, which is really interesting point, 40:52.000 --> 40:58.000 but also that to link to Federation with 4JL, and there's a link there. 40:58.000 --> 41:02.000 And so I definitely encourage people to check that out. 41:02.000 --> 41:04.000 So, excellent. That's great. 41:04.000 --> 41:09.000 I'm glad that 4JL has that end, or is developing it. 41:09.000 --> 41:16.000 But yeah, I'm very, very excited for us to be working more on the chat protocols. 41:16.000 --> 41:23.000 I mean, I'm personally, you know, a big fan of XMPP, and I think everyone should use that. 41:23.000 --> 41:28.000 But yeah, go ahead. 41:28.000 --> 41:34.000 I have been using or avoiding using GitHub for a few years. 41:34.000 --> 41:41.000 I'm on court back, and I find it is really hard to avoid discord. 41:41.000 --> 41:45.000 So, that could be even more problematic. 41:45.000 --> 41:48.000 What's your suggestion in this case? 41:48.000 --> 41:52.000 My apologies. In which cases is it difficult to avoid discord? 41:52.000 --> 42:00.000 And for many projects doing chat because there is no recording chat? 42:00.000 --> 42:04.000 Yes. So, talking to the developers. 42:04.000 --> 42:11.000 So, this could, many of those projects have discord, this could serve us. 42:11.000 --> 42:16.000 And so, what is the solution in this case? 42:17.000 --> 42:23.000 I'm sorry. Is it some other features of discord aside from chat that people are using? 42:23.000 --> 42:25.000 I'm not sure. 42:25.000 --> 42:31.000 Okay. All right. Yes. So, I absolutely agree that we should be. 42:31.000 --> 42:38.000 We should be making sure that the tools that we provide to people are able to offer them all of the features that they are used to. 42:39.000 --> 42:42.000 In, in freedom respecting ways, definitely. 42:42.000 --> 42:49.000 And I think, you know, there are a lot of XMPB extensions that will allow you to do this that are all standardized. 42:49.000 --> 42:54.000 So, things like, you know, screen sharing and things like that. 42:54.000 --> 42:56.000 So, we should use those. 42:56.000 --> 43:01.000 There is another question from the chat. 43:01.000 --> 43:03.000 What should we prioritize? 43:03.000 --> 43:10.000 Federated across Federation across forges or decentralization. 43:10.000 --> 43:14.000 I mean, I think these things are both very important to do. 43:14.000 --> 43:17.000 We should have, we should have both of those. 43:17.000 --> 43:21.000 It's important for people to be running lots of different instances, 43:21.000 --> 43:30.000 so that we can reduce the chance that any single instance having issue causes a general concern in that network. 43:30.000 --> 43:34.000 And yeah, I think that's a very important point. 43:34.000 --> 43:36.000 I think we're actually out of time. 43:36.000 --> 43:41.000 I apologize. It's very hard to hear the questions here and it's funny because when you watch the video later, 43:41.000 --> 43:42.000 it's crystal clear. 43:42.000 --> 43:44.000 And you're like, oh, that's what they were asking. 43:44.000 --> 43:50.000 But I just want to say Bradley is watching the hotel after having spent the day, 43:50.000 --> 43:54.000 rejiggering the talk that he worked so hard to give today. 43:54.000 --> 43:59.000 I really, I'm so inspired by the work that Bradley does and how much he's put in 43:59.000 --> 44:02.000 in decades of his life towards self or freedom. 44:02.000 --> 44:07.000 And I know, could we all give him a huge round of applause for all the work that he does for self or freedom? 44:15.000 --> 44:18.000 Thanks everybody for joining us and we hope to engage with you more on this issue.