WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:14.320 All right, hello folks, my name is Chris, I work at the Green Web Foundation. If you've 00:14.320 --> 00:18.960 never seen me before, this is what they're like online, if you can't see me here, if I suppose. 00:18.960 --> 00:24.840 I, for the last 20 years, I've been working in a series of wacky environmental and data themed 00:24.840 --> 00:31.000 startups, like low-co2, which is low CO2 travel around Europe, Amy, which is all about 00:31.000 --> 00:37.400 CO2 calculations over an API. These days, I work at the Green Web Foundation. Can you guess 00:37.400 --> 00:43.640 what the Green Web Foundation is about? Yes, all right, and while we hear today, this is what 00:43.640 --> 00:49.240 I want to share with you in the next 20 or so minutes that we have. I want to help you understand, 00:49.240 --> 00:54.040 how digital services can cause emissions, carbon emissions. I'm going to help you understand the 00:54.040 --> 01:00.280 link between accessibility and the sustainability of websites. We'll look at some concrete examples to 01:00.280 --> 01:04.760 help you think about some of this, and then we'll look at some of the laws and the data sets 01:04.760 --> 01:11.080 that help us fight the good fights for a greener, more inclusive web. Are you all sitting comfortably? 01:11.640 --> 01:20.040 Yes, then I'll begin. All right, how does making a website, more accessible, make it more sustainable? 01:20.920 --> 01:25.320 So before we start, I'm just going to give you a quick word, like there's this turn sustainability 01:25.320 --> 01:30.200 and there's this turn carbon emissions, right? I know they're not the same thing, all right? There's 01:30.200 --> 01:34.760 all these other things we need to think about when we think about sustainability, like biodiversity, 01:34.760 --> 01:41.080 poverty, like pollutants, all of the things here. We only have 20 minutes though, so I'm just 01:41.080 --> 01:46.120 going to focus on carbon emissions, all right? So there is more, and we can touch on that later, 01:46.120 --> 01:51.880 but not in this 20 minutes. All right, so how will you digital services cause emissions? 01:51.880 --> 01:57.480 This is a diagram from the Sustainable Web model, which is one of the most popular models used 01:57.480 --> 02:02.920 for people to work out the carbon footprint of a website. And then we talk about digital services. 02:03.720 --> 02:09.320 We might be playing a game, or watching a video, or buying something on a tablet or an iPhone, 02:09.320 --> 02:14.440 but really there's a really complicated supply chain at work going on, all right? So you've got a 02:14.440 --> 02:20.440 network of always on undersea cables, we've got routers, we've got cell towers, stuff like that, 02:20.440 --> 02:26.920 they're connected to data centers, which always on 24-7 as well, and all these use lots of energy, 02:26.920 --> 02:32.280 and most of the time, most of our power is still coming from fossil fuels, although it is changing 02:32.280 --> 02:37.480 quite fast in certain parts of the world. You think of the energy part as like use phase emissions, 02:37.480 --> 02:42.840 all right? However, someone still has to make all these electronics, all right? So we need to turn 02:42.920 --> 02:48.600 sand into basically silicon chips and stuff like that. That is also extremely energy intensive in 02:48.600 --> 02:54.360 its own right, and you can think of this as like embedding the energy into these kinds of devices. 02:54.360 --> 03:00.440 So people call these embodied emissions, it's embodied into it. Now, should I even care, 03:00.440 --> 03:06.840 like is it big? Is it worth worrying about? So this is the question people ask me a lot of the time, 03:06.840 --> 03:11.720 and this is basically why I say yes, the carbon footprint is about two to four percent is what 03:11.800 --> 03:16.600 people tend to use. If you work in industry, you'll probably say, oh, it's 1.5 to or something like that. 03:16.600 --> 03:21.800 If you work in civil society, you will say it's more like five or six depending on what you choose 03:21.800 --> 03:27.720 to include, all right? And I can share, we've got a leak, we've got a report, which covers this 03:27.720 --> 03:34.600 and lots more detail on this deck. Now, most people don't know what 2 percent of global emissions 03:34.600 --> 03:40.600 is, so I use things to compare it to to make it easier to understand. And people often say, 03:40.760 --> 03:45.480 it's the same as they say, aviation industry. And that's helpful in some ways, but 03:45.480 --> 03:51.400 otherwise it's not so helpful because in aviation, half of the emissions come from one percent of 03:51.400 --> 03:57.320 the flyers. And most people in the world haven't flown and won't ever fly. And I think more than, 03:57.320 --> 04:02.120 I think, we're more people using it. And like, you can't make a joke about maybe 1 percent of the 04:02.120 --> 04:06.920 crypto users making half of the unit from the tech industry, but I'm not sure if that, I don't have 04:06.920 --> 04:12.760 the data to back that up yet. So I would suggest instead talking about shipping, because 90 04:12.760 --> 04:18.840 percent of the goods we use, they come by ship. And it also has a comparable carbon footprint 04:18.840 --> 04:25.080 of around 2 to 3 percent of global emissions. Also, for most of us, shipping isn't something 04:25.080 --> 04:31.160 we experience directly, but we know it takes massive boats just like this, burning all kinds of 04:31.160 --> 04:36.040 really, really dirty fuel to get things around. And almost all of us rely on shipping in the 04:36.040 --> 04:40.760 same way we all rely on the internet. Now, you probably don't want to cut shipping out of your 04:40.760 --> 04:44.680 life, just the same way you don't want to cut the internet out of your life. But there are 04:44.680 --> 04:49.800 things we can do to reduce environmental impact of it, because if the shipping industry is trying 04:49.800 --> 04:53.160 to clean up their act, then maybe we should figure out how to clean up our act as well. 04:55.240 --> 05:01.000 So, okay, so there's a footprint, it's big, but what about my work? Is it big for me? 05:01.880 --> 05:07.880 So, these are some numbers in the real, in the public domain, from organizations you might have 05:07.880 --> 05:13.880 heard of. So, ABNM, that's the third largest bank in the Netherlands. One of their last reports, 05:13.880 --> 05:19.080 they said about 40 percent of their organizational emissions came from digital services, which is 05:19.080 --> 05:24.440 pretty chunky. Salesforce have, on the record, said, yeah, half our emissions come from 05:24.440 --> 05:28.280 things like cloud and stuff like that. They had to build their own in-house models, 05:28.360 --> 05:33.160 because they didn't get the numbers from their upstream supplies, who's, I'm not going to name them, 05:33.160 --> 05:37.160 you can probably guess who they are, all right. And then, Mozilla, when they looked at their 05:37.160 --> 05:41.800 carbon footprint from the use of their digital services, they came up with a really, really large number. 05:41.800 --> 05:47.800 And this number is very, very large, because they included end user use of their services as well. 05:47.800 --> 05:51.960 And this is actually partly one, Mozilla is so keen on making it easy to work out the 05:52.680 --> 05:55.560 energy consumption of things in the browser now, as well. 05:56.280 --> 06:03.160 Now, it's not always the case. So, this is our organization. We try to figure out what the footprint 06:03.160 --> 06:10.040 of our digital estate was last year, last summer. And we used a tool called the tech carbon standard, 06:10.040 --> 06:15.320 which is essentially a way to kind of help us figure out where the emissions were. And what we found 06:15.320 --> 06:20.120 was that actually a significant chunk, we thought it would be all up here, but it turns out, 06:20.120 --> 06:24.680 whole bunch of it is actually from us just using our devices and buying our devices and all 06:24.760 --> 06:29.800 the embodied emissions in that. And if you're curious, there is a link to this in the deck, 06:29.800 --> 06:36.280 because it's all on GitHub as well. That's how we tend to work. So, yes, it's something that you 06:36.280 --> 06:40.360 might want to think about. And it could be large, but I'm not going to say it definitely is large, 06:40.360 --> 06:45.720 it can vary from organization to organization. All right. So, how does making website more accessible? 06:45.720 --> 06:51.880 How does this actually help? How does making a website more accessible make it more sustainable? 06:52.840 --> 06:59.000 So, as in on here, heard of the WCAG, WCAG, the web content or three-guide lines. All right, 06:59.000 --> 07:02.760 I'm going to use some of the language that you folks might know if you're familiar with this. 07:02.760 --> 07:09.080 So, there is a concept called poor, perceivable, operable, understandable, and robust. These are the 07:09.080 --> 07:15.560 kind of terms you might use to help understand if a word if a service is actually accessible and not 07:15.560 --> 07:21.320 really. Let's use these to talk about sustainability. So, if something is perceivable, 07:21.400 --> 07:26.840 you know, multiple ways to access the same content with different senses. Now, when we think about 07:26.840 --> 07:32.280 this in the sustainability context, there could be multiple kinds of browsers accessing the same 07:32.280 --> 07:36.440 kind of content. So, you could have a text only browser, which means there's lots and lots of 07:36.440 --> 07:41.000 different devices that can access content, as well as the kind of rich desktop things. This is like 07:41.000 --> 07:45.480 this is helpful because it reduces the amount of induced updates. You're not forcing people to 07:45.480 --> 07:51.240 update all the time. How about operable? So, normally people talk about operable in terms of 07:51.240 --> 07:56.280 okay, do I have a physical accessibility need or something like that? But also, this can apply to just 07:56.280 --> 08:01.800 like damaged and broken devices. So, let's say you have a broken home button on your phone. All right? 08:01.800 --> 08:05.960 Now, there are lots of cases where just having something foundational, that means you, 08:05.960 --> 08:09.880 okay, how do I access services? Do I have to throw the device away? Now, if you've got some 08:09.880 --> 08:13.960 thing design properly, then there are other ways of accessing it because you're looking at 08:13.960 --> 08:18.760 multiple different ways of operating the same kind of device. Now, actually, I friends do this. 08:18.760 --> 08:22.680 My partner has a broken iPhone and has one for the last few months and she's been able to 08:22.680 --> 08:26.520 access services that she otherwise wouldn't be able to. So, which I actually thought was pretty cool. 08:27.640 --> 08:32.920 Understandable. Even if the digital channel for meeting a need is more efficient than the 08:32.920 --> 08:37.320 physical one and that's why people use digital services a lot of the time because it's cheaper and 08:37.320 --> 08:42.680 possibly greener, then it still needs to be usable and intelligible to people. All right? So, 08:42.680 --> 08:47.320 let's say you have people who have low confidence in digital skills. All right? They might have a 08:47.400 --> 08:53.720 really, really efficient way to do something online. But if they don't understand how to use it 08:53.720 --> 08:58.040 and they don't use it, it ends up creating much more demand on all the other channels you need to 08:58.040 --> 09:02.520 provide to allow someone to kind of meet those needs. So, the technical term for this is failure 09:02.520 --> 09:07.720 demand, increased failure demand is what you have. So, this is one idea of understandable and then 09:07.720 --> 09:13.640 robust. Let's say you're going to look at robust in terms of designs and mark up that are able to 09:13.640 --> 09:18.840 work with hardware, with older hardware, older software, they work in low bandwidth environments, 09:18.840 --> 09:22.440 things like this. These are the things you kind of plan for if you're designing things, 09:22.440 --> 09:27.640 if you're thinking about accessibility, this also has an knock on effect. Now, the example I give 09:27.640 --> 09:31.560 here is the learning management system in a university that's still worked with older browsers 09:31.560 --> 09:36.520 and I'll show you why later. But there's also other cases if you have something which doesn't work 09:36.520 --> 09:43.320 with a slow connection. Then people can end up doing things like driving somewhere so they can 09:43.320 --> 09:48.760 get to a fast connection to do something and like we work in a team where someone lives in 09:48.760 --> 09:53.160 a space where they have low bandwidth, they have to drive to an office to share their screen 09:53.160 --> 09:57.320 in our teams sometimes, which gives you an idea of like this is a knock on effect that you don't 09:57.320 --> 10:03.560 think about straight away, but you can plan for. So, that's poor, that's like using accessibility 10:03.560 --> 10:08.440 language to talk a little bit about sustainability. So, let's make this concrete with some more examples. 10:09.400 --> 10:14.360 So, I spoke about learning management systems and there is this really, really cool paper called 10:14.360 --> 10:20.200 stipulated smartphones for students, the requirements of modern technology for academia. 10:20.200 --> 10:25.160 It's by Rob McGinnis and George Porter, and I'm not expecting you to read this, don't worry. 10:25.160 --> 10:31.160 But the general justice of this was that these were researches at a large US university, 10:31.160 --> 10:37.080 looking at what kind of requirements and what tools they had induced harder upgrades by students 10:37.080 --> 10:40.600 and what things they had there. There's loads of stuff inside of them, I'm just going to 10:40.600 --> 10:45.960 pull out the things I can fit in a 20 minute talk. So, to focus our study, we target representative 10:45.960 --> 10:51.080 websites used by students in an undergrad, countryside degree, and they look at things that you've 10:51.080 --> 10:57.080 heard of, Google Drive, Stack Overflow, Google Notebook, Canvas and PRC, I don't know them, 10:57.080 --> 11:02.760 but they are used by some people, right? So, they look at this stuff and they say, well, how 11:02.760 --> 11:07.480 usable are these, for example? And one cool thing they did, that was visual that I could borrow 11:07.480 --> 11:12.840 and show on a screen, was they basically looked at these devices, looked at the services, 11:12.840 --> 11:18.280 then they looked at them, they used tools like browser stack to emulate some of these services. 11:18.280 --> 11:23.320 So, and then they tried to complete common tasks using them, and the green stuff on the right 11:23.320 --> 11:27.960 hand side, these are like the new devices basically. Now, as you go further to the left, they get 11:27.960 --> 11:31.800 older and older and older, and you can see more and more red slipping in, and certain devices just 11:31.800 --> 11:37.720 do not work. And this means that if you're on the left hand side and you need to do something, 11:37.720 --> 11:41.320 then you're often going to, it's not that you're going to not do your degree, you're probably 11:41.320 --> 11:46.360 just going to buy that buy a new device, for example. And this is literally what they say, 11:46.360 --> 11:50.520 given the oversized role that cost the manufacturing place, this is one of the things, they need 11:50.520 --> 11:56.120 to look at the, what kind of updates they're kind of essentially inducing, getting people to do, 11:56.600 --> 12:00.600 and if you can make something which is usable for a longer period of time, so you don't need 12:00.600 --> 12:05.640 to update, there's a saving that you can bring about there. And I can give you a concrete example 12:05.640 --> 12:09.720 of this, just to make it easy to have got some numbers. So, let's see, we've got 20,000 students 12:10.360 --> 12:15.160 at a university, 10% of people have to update their phones, for example, so they can actually 12:15.160 --> 12:20.920 complete their course. Now, I don't know off the top of my head, what the carbon footprint of updating 12:20.920 --> 12:26.120 the phone is, but the folks at Bauer Vista have this really cool tool called Data Vista, 12:26.120 --> 12:32.120 where they can give you some of these numbers. And the short number is that you can basically choose 12:32.120 --> 12:36.760 what kind of things you're looking for, I chose a smartphone, and I can see most of the carbon footprint 12:36.760 --> 12:41.080 I said before was from the embedded part, not the use phase, it's about 80 odd calories, 12:41.080 --> 12:46.520 oh, 80 odd kilograms. So then I can put together some toy mats to help it understand this, 12:46.600 --> 12:55.400 all right, 20,000 students, 10% of that, multiply by that figure, 168,000 kilos, 168 tons. 12:55.800 --> 13:00.040 Now, I wasn't really thinking about that when I was designing services, but it gives you an idea 13:00.040 --> 13:05.560 of, okay, this is like the default that we would like to maybe avoid if we can. 13:06.760 --> 13:11.240 Now, does this mean that I'm both designing things that I'm a bad person if I haven't thought 13:11.480 --> 13:17.320 about this stuff? I don't think it does. I'm not saying you're bad if you're not thinking 13:17.320 --> 13:21.560 about this or you've ever designed a single web page that isn't, that isn't accessible because 13:21.560 --> 13:26.520 we've all done that, but it does give us an idea of what the consequence is all right now, 13:26.520 --> 13:30.440 and it gives us an idea to talk about, okay, here's our baseline, how do we improve this? 13:31.080 --> 13:36.600 The other thing I want to share with you is that this is actually more of a structural problem rather 13:36.600 --> 13:42.520 than an individual problem, and there are all kinds of other drivers, inside this. So in 2025, 13:43.080 --> 13:48.680 if you use a Windows machine, there's been this whole push to basically end of life, Windows 10, 13:48.680 --> 13:53.480 so you need to have like at least two cores in your machine, it's much, you have much greater 13:53.480 --> 13:59.400 processor requirements, things like that, and from a sustainability point of view, this is kind of 13:59.400 --> 14:04.840 bad. From the point of someone who rest of buy a new device to kind of continue on a course or something, 14:04.920 --> 14:10.920 it's kind of bad, but from the point of a shareholder, it's great, so this is like, 14:10.920 --> 14:16.600 this is basically a earnings call, so people are talking rubbing their hands with glee in 2025, 14:16.600 --> 14:20.440 at all these new devices they're going to get bought, all right, so this is people who form say 14:20.440 --> 14:26.280 Lenovo, HP, and they'll just say, yeah, this end of life is the big driver of ourselves this year, 14:26.280 --> 14:32.680 isn't that great? Should we look at some numbers for that as well? All right, so roughly, 14:32.680 --> 14:36.760 these are, I'll shed a link to this to show you the kind of assumptions behind this, all right, 14:36.760 --> 14:43.000 typically, 250 million PCs made, I like to sold each year, all right, average PC life, 14:43.000 --> 14:48.440 lifespan, four and a half years, if that gives us about 1.25 billion PCs in circulation, 14:48.440 --> 14:53.000 as it were, all right, now I looked at the figures, how many are using Windows 10, 14:53.000 --> 14:59.320 it's about 70% still up to them Windows 10, so you have nearly 800 million PCs, and then 15:00.040 --> 15:03.960 let's just say they're all wrapped up, they're not, but you can come up with ideas here, 15:03.960 --> 15:11.720 180 one kilos, you multiply that, that's 144, I'm just going to use that figure because it's 15:11.720 --> 15:18.120 hard to say, right, so 0.15 gigatons, all right, that's the same carbon footprint as the Philippines, 15:18.120 --> 15:22.840 which is 110 million people, this gives you some of the ideas about stuff which is kind of 15:22.840 --> 15:29.560 induced, all right, and this is the thing that I think, as people who are, this is why I think 15:29.560 --> 15:33.240 stuff like post-market and stuff is actually quite important, because if you can extend the 15:33.240 --> 15:36.920 life of these, and you don't need to have this kind of stuff where people are basically 15:36.920 --> 15:41.240 being forced to buy things, which aren't really necessary in only really working for shareholders, 15:41.240 --> 15:47.160 basically. Now, I can't talk about sustainability in AI, without LLM, since I've like that, 15:47.160 --> 15:53.480 so I've got your shareable mean slide here, all right, okay, so you talk about like, 15:54.360 --> 15:58.280 we spoke about alt text and images, right, so let's say we do it at our top, right, that's the 15:58.280 --> 16:03.800 way that a lot of us would use it. Now, increasingly, you can use LLM to help you with this, all right, 16:03.800 --> 16:08.520 now what some people do, if they can't do it in their CMS, they might use a CDN provider, 16:08.520 --> 16:13.480 like CloudFly, that can do stuff like that to kind of add alt text for each of these there, 16:13.560 --> 16:21.640 but there's like 250 points of 250 points of presence that you have, but if you have things 16:21.640 --> 16:25.800 running in the browser, and Missilla are doing a talk later on today about how to run LLM's 16:25.800 --> 16:31.240 inside your browser, you've got 20 million people running LLM's independently, adding slightly 16:31.240 --> 16:36.440 different inconsistent bits of information into this. Now, I think one of these is a slightly 16:36.440 --> 16:41.400 better outcome than the others, all right, but it gives you an idea of like, this is the consequence 16:41.400 --> 16:47.400 of the world we're kind of moving into, all right. So, I said, I chose some laws and data sets 16:47.400 --> 16:52.680 to help you find the good fight for a greener, more inclusive, with. Now, this is the stuff that 16:52.680 --> 16:57.800 I would point you to, which might be relevant, okay? So, this year we have a eco-designed 16:57.800 --> 17:02.600 for sustainable product for regulation coming in. This is essentially about hardware, so that 17:02.600 --> 17:07.800 it's really pushes people to have better design products that can be repaired and can be recycled. 17:07.880 --> 17:12.040 We also have the right to repair directive, and that means, as now, for the first time, 17:12.040 --> 17:17.720 a degree of support to actually repair things, and there's all kinds of support in different countries 17:17.720 --> 17:22.600 to make this easier. I live in Berlin, there was a repair bonus where they would basically pay 17:22.600 --> 17:27.800 half the cost of getting something repaired up to a certain amount. That meant that I might say 17:27.800 --> 17:32.840 fix an iPad, where otherwise it wouldn't be able to do it. And there was also the corporate 17:32.840 --> 17:37.160 sustainability reported directive, which is forcing companies to share information that don't 17:37.160 --> 17:42.920 really want to share about the environmental footprint of various things they do, and they actually 17:42.920 --> 17:48.440 explicitly call out cloud and data synthesis now. And then, if you're in France, this is probably 17:48.440 --> 17:52.440 one that's just the most useful for you, if you're an implementer. They actually have this thing, 17:52.440 --> 17:56.200 the general policy framework, whether you could design a digital services. It's an English, 17:56.200 --> 18:02.120 thankfully, and it has a bunch of activities and like behaviours to look for and ask for 18:02.120 --> 18:06.840 when you're designing projects and moving forward from there. Now, if you want to see what 18:06.840 --> 18:11.160 reports look like right now, the UK government has a really good one. That was published, I think, 18:11.960 --> 18:16.280 two, three weeks ago. It's really, really good. And then, I mentioned that that paper, because 18:16.280 --> 18:21.400 there's loads of really, really cool stuff inside that. And by the way, this stuff are basically, 18:21.400 --> 18:25.000 I love these Frenches. They do so much cool stuff around this, and it's really worth looking at. 18:25.000 --> 18:29.880 And then, now, this year, the W3C is starting to take an interest in this. There was now 18:29.880 --> 18:34.760 a sustainable web interest group, and there is a web sustainability guidelines doctrine, 18:34.760 --> 18:39.320 which has a really, really intimidating amount of links for you to look through. 18:40.520 --> 18:46.040 And that's kind of it. That's 20 minutes. This talk is online. You can also use a QR code, 18:46.040 --> 18:50.040 if you fancy. This is how to get in touch with me, if you want to talk about it as in future. 18:51.080 --> 18:55.080 Climate action tech is basically an online community of tech use who were trying to do stuff 18:55.080 --> 19:00.680 from climate or kind of green the way they work. I do a podcast right into view experts about 19:00.680 --> 19:04.840 this stuff. So, I can learn, and I guess by extension, I don't know who's listening along. 19:04.840 --> 19:11.080 And then, Branch is a magazine where people are trying to embody some of these ideas 19:11.080 --> 19:15.240 and how they design it. And I think that's my time. So, thank you for your attention. 19:15.240 --> 19:25.320 I don't know if I've got, if I've got much time for questions, maybe one. 19:25.320 --> 19:29.400 Oh, we do have, oh, goody. Okay. So, in that case, I do have time to 19:29.480 --> 19:34.600 feel some questions, if anyone has any questions. Oh, yes, gentle with the back. 19:51.240 --> 19:56.440 Yeah, companies are losing their shit out of it. I'll give you an example, which is my favorite. 19:57.400 --> 20:05.560 All right, so, so where is it? Yes, this one is pretty cool. Do tech firms need to report their 20:05.560 --> 20:12.600 revenue from the oil and gas sector now. All right, and CSID. So, yes, basically, we found 20:12.600 --> 20:19.400 that there is a data point specifically about how much money they're getting from oil and gas. 20:19.400 --> 20:24.600 So, it's, here we are. Yeah, that's one thing they actually definitely do have. So, 20:24.600 --> 20:29.640 yes, you have people freaking out about this. And also, let's see, ESRS. Here's the cool thing about this. 20:29.640 --> 20:36.280 Is that a bunch of it is actually online now? From, yeah, here we are. Now, let's make this a bit larger. 20:36.280 --> 20:40.920 So, this is law that we can point to right now. Oh, God, I've just just got it wrong there. 20:40.920 --> 20:45.800 But I made it to large. So, written in the law. Okay. Shoutout to scholars, emissions, 20:45.800 --> 20:49.960 from purchase cloud computing and data center services as a subset of this, go through 20:49.960 --> 20:53.800 that upstream goods and services. Like, you can just hyperlink to this stuff now. 20:53.880 --> 20:59.000 So, yes, companies are losing their shit about it because places like France, for example, 20:59.000 --> 21:03.240 if you do not disclose it, it carries present terms for the directors of the companies. 21:03.240 --> 21:08.520 It's like, oh, I better get it right now, you know. In fact, there is, where it's something. 21:08.520 --> 21:14.600 Yeah, so, you get it to liberty, CSID here. So, that's the kind of gag we came up with internally. 21:15.480 --> 21:17.320 And to other many other questions. Yes, James. 21:18.120 --> 21:22.760 And I took to a maximum of devices. Yes. 21:23.400 --> 21:29.400 I think there's some moves to the requiring open good business and things, because in my office, 21:29.400 --> 21:31.720 I have three old iPads that still work. Yeah. Yeah. 21:31.720 --> 21:37.400 Yeah. I can't install any else. I think there's actually might be some of the eco-designed 21:37.400 --> 21:41.960 directive stuff, which is saying that you cannot, that you need to provide a degree of support 21:41.960 --> 21:46.440 and guidance for people who to use the hardware because, like, 21:46.520 --> 21:51.720 weight electronics is the fastest growing waste stream in Europe. And we are the world leaders in 21:51.720 --> 21:57.000 generating waste. We're even worse than Americans. So, like, sorry, I mean, we are put put put put 21:57.000 --> 22:02.120 put putting putting more than Americans on a per capita basis. Yeah. So, yes, there is, there is 22:02.120 --> 22:07.240 stuff like that. And this is where one place, I think that Europe as it were, the European 22:07.240 --> 22:11.880 Commission is hoping to kind of be something of a leader. But there's also, there's also the 22:11.880 --> 22:16.520 distillation in America and Brazil and India about rights to repair and being able to extend 22:16.520 --> 22:21.320 the lives of your devices. So, well, any other questions before I get kicked off? 22:22.360 --> 22:41.800 Hello. Hello. So, you're right. So, the question? Yes. So, you're right. So, the question, 22:42.600 --> 22:47.400 for everyone else is basically, if you're going to be using our devices, are you not leaving 22:47.400 --> 22:54.360 people open to all the attacks because they're out of support and stuff like that? So, yes, 22:54.360 --> 22:58.440 this is actually a trade-off. And I'm not saying that you should definitely use old stuff as 22:58.440 --> 23:03.240 much as you can, because I think we should be prepared to make or make what's the word, oh, oh, 23:03.240 --> 23:11.640 is it okay? Okay. I think we need to make trade-offs about which, what I'm prioritizing here. 23:12.280 --> 23:17.480 So, it maybe says some things I'm okay with if I'm in a, if I'm not in a kind of high risk 23:17.480 --> 23:21.880 environment, for example. But this is actually, like we said before, a structural problem 23:21.880 --> 23:25.880 a lot of the time, because the thing with the Microsoft, for example, the thing they're driving 23:25.880 --> 23:29.960 is they want to have a trusted computing module inside their computers, which is why they're 23:29.960 --> 23:34.360 pushing this. So, they're making a security argument straight away. So, not every security argument 23:34.360 --> 23:39.400 is the same. And there are various things that you can do with, in my review, open source tooling 23:39.400 --> 23:43.800 to address some of this. But that will probably require more funding. So, things like funding 23:43.800 --> 23:48.680 groups like post-market and all the other groups, so actually, you've set some sensible, usable defaults. 23:48.680 --> 24:13.800 Yes, I think you should have funding going into that. In my dream world, once things 24:13.800 --> 24:18.760 can't fall out of there, once they get hit in the life, all the source code is available for 24:18.760 --> 24:22.600 other people to maintain it. Because if you're not going to take care of it, someone has to. 24:22.600 --> 24:27.000 Right? We're not there yet, but I know that's what policy is a good leave before. You can use 24:27.000 --> 24:31.400 like a baseball bat to catch you like get something done. So, yeah, that was it. Yes. 24:31.400 --> 24:37.640 Well, the thing that the problem with this absolute device is, and why they can follow to 24:38.200 --> 24:45.000 make us to throw them away, because they are good dust in their travels, they're useless. 24:45.000 --> 24:51.000 So, it's like the equipment, the loss of the, it's, at some point, it's shown to become 24:51.000 --> 24:58.600 fresh, and we need just, I mean, what's the one? Yeah. And we just have not the ability to 24:58.600 --> 25:03.640 do the minor operation, the device is like, for example, why we cannot put any of them 25:03.640 --> 25:08.840 on this laptop, why we can't. So, this is, there are signs that this is actually, 25:08.840 --> 25:12.280 there are promising signs in this. So, who's heard of a framework laptop, right? 25:12.840 --> 25:17.640 Has anyone seen that thing where they offer like the risk v, the risk v, like main board, 25:17.640 --> 25:21.240 you could just plug into it? So, totally separate companies, like, it's like 20 years ago, 25:21.240 --> 25:25.880 we used to be able to do it with like, desktop. There are promising signs, but we probably need 25:25.880 --> 25:29.880 to support that kind of stuff, and, well, I mean, I'm using an Apple Mac, and I'm probably 25:29.960 --> 25:33.480 going to be stuck with it for a while, but the next thing I buy, I definitely wanted 25:33.480 --> 25:38.360 to use a replaceable and upgradable for this reason. All right, I'm my number time. 25:39.240 --> 25:43.160 Brilliant. Okay, thank you, everyone.