WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:12.240 So, hello everyone. Welcome to my talk. How could open source invocation and education work? 00:12.240 --> 00:17.600 And it's already marked with a question mark because, sadly, I don't have all the answers, 00:17.600 --> 00:23.400 but it's also an invitation for discussion and ideas. For everybody who isn't aware 00:23.400 --> 00:29.480 vocation and education means that those people have already finished normally school, 00:29.480 --> 00:35.720 like a secondary school, but they are not going to university, they're doing an education 00:35.720 --> 00:42.360 in combination of a school part and a part of the company and it's in Germany, 00:42.360 --> 00:46.680 quite a traditional system. As well in Austria and also in many other areas, 00:46.680 --> 00:52.760 and I think we should be aware more there because the reasons I will just give you 00:52.760 --> 00:58.600 in some seconds. So, I will talk a little bit about who am I, so that you understand my background 00:58.600 --> 01:04.760 and what motivates me and also what are my resources for that and so on. So, trust that you get 01:04.760 --> 01:09.320 a feeling so what is the setting and for the same reason I will also talk a little bit about 01:09.320 --> 01:16.040 who are the apprentices or who is our target group. So, who do we want to reach here? 01:16.920 --> 01:24.360 Yeah, right matters. Besides the obvious reason why it always matters, maybe some 01:24.360 --> 01:33.080 more specific reason why I think it matters for this target group. Yeah, then a little bit of a 01:33.080 --> 01:41.080 more generic part where could we now use open source from an high level perspective and then 01:41.080 --> 01:50.120 I want to finish up with some concrete examples. So, who am I? Yeah, this is now a company 01:50.120 --> 01:54.600 slide but why I have already included it? Because it tells you hey, I work at a company, meaning 01:54.600 --> 02:00.600 I do the education while I work my company job and many companies to be grind owners, 02:00.600 --> 02:05.320 they are on the way to trying to be more resource, but they are not there yet. So, 02:05.320 --> 02:10.840 for we don't just like the preferred infrastructure, not everybody works at a company that was 02:10.840 --> 02:15.480 founded with open source. So, you are somewhere in between and you are on the way. So, maybe 02:15.480 --> 02:19.720 you have not the preferred set up from the beginning, but you are trying to get there. So, 02:19.720 --> 02:28.120 this is the background basically. Me personally, I have used open source of my kind of 02:28.120 --> 02:33.080 always because my father used it, but that's not true for everybody who is doing an apprenticeship 02:33.080 --> 02:38.920 as well, right? So, I need to take that one on that count. I also studied computer science, 02:39.880 --> 02:45.080 that is also not true if you do vocational education. So, I need to consider that one as well. 02:45.080 --> 02:56.360 So, not to apply my own biases there. I came more into us as there, like actively being more 02:56.360 --> 03:04.120 aware and contributing as well. I personally also, you mostly work for a better little 03:04.120 --> 03:10.360 institutions, meaning, okay, this is where I have my knowledge and I can teach more. 03:13.640 --> 03:19.720 There I am also working at the moment, my company elect a bit, but in this company I also take care 03:19.720 --> 03:25.240 of our apprentices and this brings it all together a little bit my open source background and 03:25.240 --> 03:31.400 the apprenticeship background. So, two different directions and now the questions, hey, I want to 03:31.720 --> 03:41.240 teach them, can I just teach them the same way? I was thought, probably not, that will not work. 03:43.560 --> 03:52.040 So, who are they now? Who are we talking about? So, first of all, how many learn computer science 03:52.040 --> 03:58.760 bio vocational education? Those are German numbers, but those are the numbers I have available and 03:58.840 --> 04:03.960 I know that in Austria and in other countries, it's looking for a page of 04:03.960 --> 04:12.120 proportionally with the amount of people living there in a similar direction. But those are numbers 04:12.120 --> 04:20.600 and here you see that for example, in 2022, more than 40,000 people were in vocational education 04:20.600 --> 04:26.520 and this normally takes like three years. So, if you think okay, every year, she is around 50 04:27.480 --> 04:34.920 this sums up if you have ever seen years 50K and it also trends arising. So, maybe in 30 years 04:34.920 --> 04:41.240 you have half a million people and you're teaching them something. Respect to computer science 04:41.240 --> 04:48.360 and they are neither in high school, nor in universities. So, of those people normally, you have a 04:48.360 --> 04:54.920 one to 10 relationship between male and female, maybe something to also consider where to improve 04:54.920 --> 05:03.880 it also to consider how to chose your topics. So, what is the education background normally? 05:04.760 --> 05:15.400 So, normally they have something that is equivalent to the A levels that's half of them or 05:15.560 --> 05:25.160 most of them finished like 10 years of schooling and then got the diploma there. You have some 05:25.160 --> 05:33.880 that are basically not graduated, but that is minor number. So, all around this makes them to 15 05:33.880 --> 05:43.240 to 19 years old. So, not like 12 year olds, but also not like 25. But it also means when you 05:43.240 --> 05:47.960 take a look at the education background that you cannot expect them to be perfect English, 05:49.320 --> 05:56.440 that you can expect more or less English, maybe very little, that you cannot expect them to be 05:56.440 --> 06:03.960 too self-reliant to self-organized. But it also means you cannot expect them to 06:04.040 --> 06:13.640 behave like 12 year olds or to behave like primary school students. So, you somehow 06:14.520 --> 06:22.760 in the middle of all that. And to be honest, I think the middle of all that is an overlap area. 06:22.760 --> 06:35.560 We have and I would give more examples about that later. So, so, what do you think? Those people, 06:35.560 --> 06:41.640 if you ask them when they start their learnings, what do you think? How many of them know 06:41.640 --> 06:47.960 what open source is? Maybe just race one finger per 10%. So, 10% would be one finger. How many 06:47.960 --> 06:59.240 do you think would know? So, we have 10%, 20% know, 10%, 20%, 30, 30, 0. Okay, that's not so deep. 06:59.240 --> 07:05.560 It back as it is, you see, I've asked around and half of them actually know or think they know. 07:08.200 --> 07:14.360 Next question is, can you name an open source nice and thin? Can you make it more concrete? 07:14.360 --> 07:21.320 Let's try again the same exercise. Yeah, you know, it's it's it's it's about 75% I 07:22.200 --> 07:29.880 plus or minus I always plus or minus 2% okay, but last question, you think you can 07:30.920 --> 07:37.320 name an open source nice and 25% still think, yeah, hey, I can name this and this one and then he 07:37.400 --> 07:42.600 example, it says okay, am I T for example, and then you ask them yeah and 07:44.280 --> 07:50.360 anyone, do you know what does this imply them? What what what is this implying them? 07:50.360 --> 08:01.800 And how many do you think that know? 10, 0, 10, 10, 0. Okay, I had found one who knew and this 08:02.760 --> 08:09.640 and 2, 2, 2 because I always around the upper down, I gave 95% to be honest it's 99, 08:10.760 --> 08:18.280 but yeah, because if there's a T on 5 so they have some some some some 08:19.320 --> 08:23.160 they have some feeling that it exists half of them, but it's rather unconquered. 08:23.800 --> 08:35.320 Um, so already they're in no more, okay, so this is who you're talking about, but why doesn't 08:35.320 --> 08:40.600 know matter? Hey, consider you are starting new a chop in a company and you're going there for a 08:40.600 --> 08:47.000 stage, you've got a company device, you're putting it for the first time and you see oh, 08:47.960 --> 08:55.000 that's a Windows laptop, you take it, you see okay, no props, hey, I'll go to the IT department 08:55.000 --> 09:01.160 because I want to follow the rules, it's a new company and so on and he's like hey, could I have 09:01.160 --> 09:08.360 or maybe maybe wouldn't be possible to have any Linux distribution instead and you can get this answer 09:09.000 --> 09:16.360 or you can get a excuse me what? No, I think this is why it matters for example, so it matters 09:16.360 --> 09:27.160 for us also because hey, they will be future IT specialists and of those roles in the IT department 09:27.160 --> 09:34.440 and so the design of such topics are filled with people who did vocational education, so what you 09:34.440 --> 09:40.680 teach them about it is relevant because they will make decisions like what operating system to use, 09:40.680 --> 09:45.560 how is your server infrastructure looking and so on, it's often chosen by people 09:45.560 --> 09:50.680 with such a kind of background, so what do you want to use? Well, the people who are deciding that 09:51.400 --> 10:00.440 let's see what background they have and then hey, maybe I try to teach them something, 10:00.440 --> 10:06.760 well, we have access to open source, education resources, this is as in always an open source 10:06.760 --> 10:12.840 great to share with other, we can save time, it makes them more independent because I don't know 10:12.920 --> 10:18.120 everything, I've told you before, I have an embedded little speck out but maybe want to specialise 10:18.120 --> 10:23.960 in something widely different, how should I ever teach that? I don't have the knowledge, 10:23.960 --> 10:29.000 would it not be great to use a resource there that teaches them that and yeah, 10:31.480 --> 10:36.280 in the end hey, that's our trust other contributing IT guys in the future, 10:37.160 --> 10:43.400 why should we be left with them out? It's the same as for a whip out there, right? So why does it 10:43.400 --> 10:53.880 matter now from then? So have you ever programmed something, it was a closed source AP and you 10:53.880 --> 10:59.080 have really hated it? You have not found any, I'm going to leave the description, you saw 10:59.080 --> 11:04.440 there's a weird back and there was no progress at all and you were like frustrating, 11:04.440 --> 11:14.040 why is this not working? I see a green face, how much fun do you have? I don't let you estimate 11:14.040 --> 11:20.680 because I know it's like that, zero, how much do you think you learned by you have that, zero fun? 11:22.680 --> 11:27.480 Let you don't have fun with closed source AP, maybe you have learned, but what I want to say is 11:28.360 --> 11:38.760 while fun is not needed to learn something, you can also learn through pain. It makes learning 11:39.640 --> 11:46.360 in a more self-positive, the influence exerted. If you can't share and learn in a collaborative way, 11:46.920 --> 11:53.640 you feel empowered because you have all the information, you can be creative, we're just 11:53.640 --> 11:59.960 seeing before creative shapes, for example, you also have a sense of responsibility because you 11:59.960 --> 12:07.160 can fight the things yourself and you feel independent and then, and lastly, you're also 12:07.160 --> 12:14.280 preparing for the future of work because if you're a team person who doesn't know anything about 12:14.280 --> 12:20.040 open source yet, well, you're probably in the wrong job, so I think that's a, itself, 12:20.120 --> 12:24.920 positively influencing, psychophilic for them, also to learn from adverse open source. 12:29.480 --> 12:43.160 Okay, we have, I would say we have three main areas where they now could use open source. 12:44.120 --> 12:54.120 We can enable them to use it as users, so we can say, okay, well, they're getting an 12:54.120 --> 13:00.280 development client that is coming with an open source MOS, with an open source. 13:01.960 --> 13:10.840 Mail client with all of the basic equipment, the basic environment that they can use as users. 13:11.480 --> 13:16.760 We have the situation that they can use, of course, open source resources for learning, learning 13:16.760 --> 13:26.680 what open source is because, as we saw before, there's some need. But lastly, and those 13:27.480 --> 13:33.240 education takes three years, three years, I think we should also encourage them to become 13:33.320 --> 13:41.080 country builders, not just consumers. If you learned computer science for three years, 13:42.280 --> 13:49.080 there should be the possibility also to contribute, not just to learn and to consume here. 13:51.480 --> 14:01.880 So for users, okay, we need to enable them, if we don't provide them any way shape or form to use 14:01.880 --> 14:10.760 in a compliant or company, a brief way open source, they cannot do it. As 16-year-old will not 14:10.760 --> 14:16.200 just do it on his own. We need to do that, we need to enable them, and we need to ensure them that they 14:16.200 --> 14:22.680 have that. For learners, I think it's a little bit of a challenge to find the fitting resources. 14:22.680 --> 14:29.240 This challenge is still widely open, I would say, and for contributing, it's how to enable them, 14:29.240 --> 14:40.520 you cannot expect them to just do it out of their own. Now for learning, yeah, so there is a curriculum, 14:40.520 --> 14:48.280 and it's telling basically, always, yeah, well, teach what open source is, teach about licenses, 14:48.280 --> 14:55.640 otherwise there's nothing there. But nobody says we cannot use open source material for teaching. 14:55.640 --> 15:02.200 So nobody forbid source as well, right? So that's no matter. So for teaching what open sources, 15:04.360 --> 15:09.720 and teach about licenses, I or I'm a like to say, yeah, okay, we can teach them as normal 15:09.720 --> 15:17.800 university students. They're the same plus or take two years age group, but make it a little bit 15:17.800 --> 15:22.600 more engaging, make it a little bit more beginner-friendly. Why not start with a game, and maybe 15:22.600 --> 15:27.960 I've seen it already, and it's not from me, but it's from the Open Culture Foundation. 15:27.960 --> 15:34.360 There, there was a stand, also in the other, I think, at the K-Pelding, and they have a great 15:34.360 --> 15:39.720 game for example that explains it's very nicely what open source, that open source ecosystems. 15:39.720 --> 15:46.040 So always, a good idea, hey, can I teach it as I would teach normal university-state students 15:46.040 --> 15:51.480 and add something on it? The link there is to the game where you can print it as well. 15:52.760 --> 15:59.800 So then, how could we maybe use it for learning programming? And there, I have a really, 16:00.520 --> 16:06.440 there I see a big gap to be quite honest, because I mean, we have nice stuff like scratch, 16:07.160 --> 16:12.200 so this is your programming language, and to be, and I think it's not for their appropriate age group. 16:12.200 --> 16:19.640 I know that you can do great things with it, but especially 15 to 19-year-old, they feel like adults, 16:19.640 --> 16:25.000 and sorry it has a kid-like aesthetic, it's out of aesthetic reasons for them. It will not work, 16:25.000 --> 16:31.080 and they feel not taking seriously. You need to take them more seriously, otherwise they will think, 16:31.080 --> 16:39.240 okay, I'm sorry what I'm doing here. It's Will Not Work. What works, okay, is stuff like 16:39.320 --> 16:45.480 Haiti for the first years, for the first few weeks, but it's not going too much in that. 16:46.200 --> 16:52.280 Then there's a bunch of open source materials for university students, and that's normally too 16:52.280 --> 16:56.760 challenging, also because it's normally in English and we have to be like what's peria. 16:57.640 --> 17:03.640 It's only for very, very talented apprentices, so that wouldn't be the norm. 17:04.600 --> 17:11.960 And besides of all those visual programming languages are existing there, of course, 17:12.520 --> 17:19.400 more than just programming knowledge needed to become an IT specialist, so sadly, I think those materials 17:19.400 --> 17:23.880 are all not really a fit, or are only a very part of it or not. 17:24.680 --> 17:35.960 So how could they, and I come then later to my concrete examples, how could we enable 17:35.960 --> 17:41.640 contributions? Well, as was everything, we need to answer the question, how can I do it? 17:43.320 --> 17:48.760 Where can I do it? What can I do that? And how do I have to be afraid to speak to strangers? 17:49.640 --> 17:58.280 How that could look, I'll give a kind of concrete example in just a few minutes. 17:59.080 --> 18:06.040 So, how to enable contribution? Well, how, yeah, okay, well, teach them as normal, teach them 18:06.680 --> 18:12.360 if needed for completing to open a public rest, but do it hand by hand, just literally sit next 18:12.360 --> 18:18.600 to them on the desk. If they are afraid, yeah, well, practice internally. 18:19.240 --> 18:26.280 Let them do a contribution to any internal code in the same fashion, but also practice externally. 18:26.280 --> 18:30.280 For example, there's a first contributions on GitHub, where you can just add your name to a 18:30.280 --> 18:34.760 file and raise up your eyes. It's nothing, but then they have already done this process like once, 18:34.760 --> 18:42.600 and it's accepted there. It seems like nothing, but it is helpful. Where, yeah, well, 18:42.600 --> 18:46.600 maybe your own open source of there could be a great first choice, because then you are the 18:46.600 --> 18:52.600 maintainer, and they're not afraid hopefully of you. Otherwise, of course, always very interested. 18:52.600 --> 18:58.440 In principle, of course, what you're starting small, spelling, small bugs, but there's also 18:58.440 --> 19:04.920 something they need to do just as university students are final thesis. This is always also 19:04.920 --> 19:14.120 something where a bigger open source contribution could be an option. Now are two concrete examples. 19:15.080 --> 19:21.400 First, I complete example for teaching here GitHub. So normally, I like to start with seeing 19:21.400 --> 19:29.640 it in German, it's called 500, but it's basically a technical presentation. You introduce a topic, 19:29.640 --> 19:35.800 you get background information, you explain a topic, you should give it yourself, 19:36.680 --> 19:42.760 recording small work, you should give it yourself, and in person. There, of course, 19:42.760 --> 19:52.280 we can use open source, we just use an open source presentation. I mean, that's tons out there. 19:52.280 --> 19:59.160 Then you could, for example, continue a good with a game, forget there are two nice examples here, 19:59.560 --> 20:06.520 and they can then just use maybe the rest of the day after the presentation to play around 20:06.520 --> 20:18.200 a little bit, then I normally like to add a practice session, either you find online already, 20:18.200 --> 20:24.520 some good material, or you need to come up with something yourself there. It depends, but 20:25.000 --> 20:32.520 you can always try to find something, already, or create something for others to use in future. 20:33.320 --> 20:38.280 And lastly, we have, well, you need to use it, of course, you'll find knowledge, 20:39.000 --> 20:44.520 there I always would recommend to provide further resources. So in the Git example, you could, of 20:44.520 --> 20:51.720 course, provide the Git book, or any other additional material. And yes, you need to provide 20:51.800 --> 20:57.800 the references and the material where they can learn more, because searching online and finding 20:57.800 --> 21:02.760 the right search terms is hard. It's hard if you don't know what you're looking for. 21:04.040 --> 21:09.800 Spend it really out, make it as explicit as possible. And now, lastly, how could I 21:09.800 --> 21:19.320 concrete a plan to contribute to open source now look? So this is a rough plan for a practice 21:19.320 --> 21:25.320 we're doing a final thesis to an open source project we have. I expect that the 21:25.320 --> 21:32.760 contribution will be around give or take a thousand lines, see plus plus code. So a little bit, 21:32.760 --> 21:39.080 I would say it's not little, not too much, but still, I would say a nice, 21:40.040 --> 21:46.600 size contribution. So first of all, I have pleaded it here to you at a little bit of a timeline, 21:46.600 --> 21:51.880 you have initiate versus hat. We start, of course, first, with a topic, so what do you 21:51.880 --> 21:59.720 really want to contribute? There you should at least initiate the idea of finding process, 21:59.720 --> 22:05.480 either then there is an idea already, or you can also just give the topic. If you have 22:05.480 --> 22:10.440 something nice, something doable in mind, and it should be relevant. It shouldn't be just like 22:10.440 --> 22:17.160 some code that will never be used. You should give the topic where they have the feeling, 22:17.160 --> 22:22.200 hey, others will use it and it's cool so that they can also be motivated in future then. 22:23.960 --> 22:29.800 Then one to have a topic, the first step is of course to help them with the environment, and so on, 22:30.680 --> 22:35.080 to building the software to test it to play around a little bit with them. And then, 22:35.080 --> 22:41.400 my next step was to introduce to the maintainers. Even before any work started, 22:41.400 --> 22:46.360 there, of course, it's ideal if you know the maintainer, so that he's just a call away. 22:47.720 --> 22:52.120 It was not an internal maintainer, but I know he knows the less, so we was just a call away, 22:52.120 --> 22:57.400 and I could set up a meeting. Like, hey, here, he would like to make a contribution. 22:57.400 --> 23:03.320 This is the topic, and then there's already some kind of less reason to be afraid because 23:03.320 --> 23:08.360 you talked and you saw, hey, the other person's there wasn't humans, hopefully. 23:09.400 --> 23:16.520 Then once you have that done, I would give some time so that my concept can be written, 23:16.520 --> 23:22.520 and also then discussed with the upstream maintainers. Then, gradually as you know, 23:22.520 --> 23:28.680 what you were so far, give time to implement some sub parts, give feedback also some internally 23:29.640 --> 23:33.560 and then what's all the sub parts like that, and all the feedback is addressed, 23:34.360 --> 23:40.120 you can raise your, get sent mail, you can raise your PR, and then you're there, 23:40.120 --> 23:45.880 the contribution is in process. Then, of course, any review comments and so on, 23:46.760 --> 23:51.560 where how this needed, you go over them instead. You don't let them answer, 23:51.640 --> 23:58.280 there are only if they need your help, but with that contributions are more lengthy, 23:58.280 --> 24:02.360 but I mean, I think a first contribution is always more lengthy, and of course, 24:03.640 --> 24:15.480 not all the steps will always be needed, but then next contribution could be more independent, 24:15.480 --> 24:20.760 and a third contribution maybe, and completely independent from my head already. 24:22.040 --> 24:27.640 And that already were, was my presentation, and I see times also, 24:29.080 --> 24:31.480 one minute is left, one question more. 24:41.480 --> 24:43.080 Sorry, come again. 24:43.160 --> 24:48.120 Is there a vocational education in development? 24:50.120 --> 24:56.360 Yes, yes, and not only in Germany, also in other European countries, yes. 25:07.000 --> 25:12.280 There exists, and I think many people don't know, and this is why I decided to give the stock, 25:13.560 --> 25:15.560 and then this is the student report. 25:18.360 --> 25:19.000 Yes? 25:19.000 --> 25:25.400 Yeah, more comments, but I look at the sub-guest today for the UK, for level two, level three instead of University, 25:25.400 --> 25:31.800 and you can learn programming languages, but I can't find anything about this is for open source, 25:31.800 --> 25:37.880 this is to learn about open source. Yes, and that's the idea of what card enough, 25:38.840 --> 25:47.080 I've looked now three years, and there's not much out there, and I think this is really a gap, 25:47.080 --> 25:54.040 because we are looking so much at younger children, and then again at university students, 25:54.040 --> 25:59.640 and I think it's also a little bit of a mindset problem that we only can imagine that people 25:59.640 --> 26:04.760 out from universities are doing computer science related job, and that's just wrong. 26:05.400 --> 26:06.760 That's not the reality. 26:08.840 --> 26:10.840 Yes? 26:10.840 --> 26:16.120 I'm also out of the source, so I'm sort of making a scene, you're not indicated in the structure, 26:16.920 --> 26:22.120 do you know, it's in, it's in the job skills, so I think it's obviously because it's a good way, 26:22.120 --> 26:27.880 for all the ages of the children to run code, the activity apps, and the PR, 26:27.880 --> 26:34.120 you can do it with the working PR classes, so I'm like to see it in the structure also, 26:34.280 --> 26:45.240 I don't know it personally, and if it is Javascript based, so here, the question was, 26:45.240 --> 26:55.080 if Smith's known, it's a Javascript based, yeah, and while I don't know it, 26:55.800 --> 27:01.480 I would look into it, I think that we also need to teach more than just Javascript based 27:01.560 --> 27:05.800 language, which I've mentioned before, that I work for embedded Linux distribution, 27:05.800 --> 27:09.240 only teaching them Javascript will not make them fit for the job. 27:15.240 --> 27:20.680 Yeah, but I work, okay, I understand your point, but I'm working for embedded Linux distribution, 27:20.680 --> 27:29.640 this involves, for example, bought, bring up, hard-wapping up, stuff in sea, and so on, sorry, 27:31.480 --> 27:36.920 maybe it's, and also I work together to do that in the creation training, so I'm in generally 27:36.920 --> 27:42.440 the application training, the structure, the company part is good part, so they have a fixed part, 27:42.440 --> 27:46.600 and then you want to learn it, and then they have a company part where you learn specific, 27:47.480 --> 27:52.680 on the job in the job, yeah, so in our case, we are more focused on embedded Linux, 27:52.680 --> 27:59.160 I mean they're also not quite in, when they are in the AI company, they are learning Javascript, 28:00.120 --> 28:06.120 I know that they have also, Javascript has started in school, but as a company, we have not 28:06.120 --> 28:12.200 to be exhausted, and we are not, our goal is not to teach them Javascript, because we want 28:12.200 --> 28:19.560 them to be too, you know, you have not, you have not, so that they will fit in the AI 28:19.560 --> 28:25.000 to our needs, and this is the goal from the creation and training, but they have to 28:25.400 --> 28:30.680 Javascript are, for that they can also go to another company, then they can move away, 28:30.680 --> 28:37.160 they can learn that stuff, so that they are not all to a company that's, so for your understanding 28:37.160 --> 28:43.000 well, yeah, and I get your point, and I don't want to dismiss it, and learning a programming language 28:43.000 --> 28:48.280 in an open source way of fashion is cool, but I think, and I teach specialist, it's more than 28:48.280 --> 28:53.000 just knowing one programming language, you also need to echo systems, the method of the tools, 28:53.000 --> 28:58.680 and so on, so therefore I think we have to at least get there, and I invite everyone to 28:58.680 --> 29:03.640 think about that further, and I think we need to have more ideas, and instead, my time is 29:03.640 --> 29:08.920 certainly up, I thank you all, and I wish you on the next talk.